.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

@SpicyChickpeas

I think you will find that principles go out the window when ones lifestyle and bank balance are under threat.

And involving one’s children.

That is my problem. As I have already said. I am a hypocrite.

I think private education is profoundly wrong.
But I want it for my children and so they both attend.

Someone once said to me “oh, are state schools not good enough for your children?”

The answer to this is no, they’re not. Nor are they good enough for yours.

Our government fails our DC on every level. It’s not private schools that cause this though and you are barking up the wrong tree if you think getting rid of them will help your state schools. Our nation is lacking in skills and education as it is and people on here want to close some of the best schools in the world?

What utter madness.

@SpicyChickpeas

"I think you will find that principles go out the window when ones lifestyle and bank balance are under threat."

I was sacrificed on the altar of my parents 'principles'. I had the opportunity to apply for a private school scholarship but my parents declined as my dad did not want me turning into someone I was not "we prefer her the way she is" was his reply to my teacher. I went to the local comp. Very deprived area, very wide ability range. Lots of behavioural issues and some crime. No culture of learning, it was very uncool to be bright and I was bullied for it, every day. The Head told my parents it was 'character building' for me to be treated in that way.

Dragging people down to that level does not 'level up' those struggling and under-achieving. I have prioritised private schooling for my children and I don't want their school experience to be like mine was.

Per my previous post, issues within the State system can and should be addressed by greater funding.

My parents in NE England both passed the 11+ grammar school exam so went to state grammar schools and became a teacher and doctor (NHS Consultant) respectively. It was the good schools and probably family encouragement which helped them. They were in areas where no one was rich or posh however so it was grammar schools in a sense working in a purer way than today in the very few areas that still have them ( we abolished grammars in NE England in about 1970) and my parents paid school fees for us from age 4 - 18.

The grammars worked in that way where I grew up too in a Northern working class town. Everybody in class took the paper. There was no fuss at all. I don’t think any of our parents knew when it was happening. It’s a lost time. They were abolished in that area a couple of years after that.
The children who don’t have opportunity or parents who understand the system will not be helped by the abolition of private schools. I would imagine house prices close to the Altrincham Grammars, to take one example, might fly soar even higher.

I really need to proofread!
soar even higher

SpicyChickpeas Sat 23-Jan-21 12:00:28
Someone once said to me “oh, are state schools not good enough for your children?”
..
Only a person with a chip on their shoulder would say that. You should never have to answer defensive questions about the choices you make for your children.

@Xenia

My parents in NE England both passed the 11+ grammar school exam so went to state grammar schools and became a teacher and doctor (NHS Consultant) respectively. It was the good schools and probably family encouragement which helped them. They were in areas where no one was rich or posh however so it was grammar schools in a sense working in a purer way than today in the very few areas that still have them ( we abolished grammars in NE England in about 1970) and my parents paid school fees for us from age 4 - 18.

It was like that for me too (not in the North of England); everyone took the 11+ and we were all well prepared for it at school.

In an ideal work I would prefer there to be no private school (and ds attends one) I am well aware of how privileged he is and I make sure he is aware of this too he has been lucky to have a better start than many children

State schools need to be better funded. I find the differences between state school performances depending on the area they are in (or become) a more concerning issue. If you have money you don’t have to send you child to a private school for them to receive a better education in many areas you just have to move within a catchment how can that be ok

My ideal world is one of lots of differences, no one set way to live or be or spend your money, people on many different incomes and taking different school choices from picking a Saudi inspired boarding school to Eton. However for state funded provision it is not fair if some areas of the country have grammar schools and most of the others don't, some have state boarding schools, some don't nor for NI and England for example to differ in state schooling provision.

@Pikoty

Unfair as it is, the world needs unequality to keep going. Not everyone can or should be a high flyer.

This.

We’re not equal, and trying to artificially create equality has failed every time it has been attempted.

How about you work harder/smarter so that you can also afford private education, rather than clamour for it to be scrapped?

Just smacks of sour grapes.

When things get too busy big they can t move quickly, descions can't be made easily, rolling things out takes time.
Giving more money won't address all the things wrong with state education.
Ideally we should be encouraging more niche state schools.

My ideal world is one of lots of differences, no one set way to live or be or spend your money, people on many different incomes and taking different school choices from picking a Saudi inspired boarding school to Eton.

Similar here although I would describe it as living somewhere where the state does not interfere with your life.

On thing that struck me when I moved back here was how involved the school was in my DC's lives. I felt like the teachers and head were making notes on us. I had a few comments where I was asked why my DS had a scratch on his face and told it was going to be put on his record. Turned out one of my DS's classmates had done it, ironically he was badly behaved and the school did nothing about it, but hey...go and blame the parent and put it on his record why don't you? I know that there are many abused DC in this country, but there are many parents who are decent so don't stick us all in the same bag. The state controls DC and their parents via their schools. That's how I see it and I never saw this in my overseas schools. To me, it is very intrusive.

There have been a number of times where I have had to tell my school that thanks, but we are his parents and we will make the decisions. In fact I got so sick of their interference that I ended up doing all my extra curricular activities off site because I wanted to have more of a life away from their watchful eye.

In fact, one of the reasons why I think our DC's education is so poor nowadays is because teachers are too busy parenting DC, as told to do so by the state, to have any joy or enthusiasm or time to teach properly.

That maybe your ideal work Xenia bit I don’t think it’s fundamentally fair they if you have money children have a better education and chances in life. And while there are some fantastic state schools there are not enough and private schooling does give children an unequal head start.

This is not down to the children themselves (though going by the mindset of many involved in private schooling from teachers to parents it is) it’s because the children will have smaller classes, Often better facilities, a child falling behind there is the resources (money) to deal with that from extra tutoring to counselling,

Spicy I find that with ds
private school there is a lot of parent input expected and we were interviewed along with ds to see if we fit in. His school isn’t what I would consider an elitist in regards to
private schools.

YABU in my opinion. Appreciate that some jobs pay far better than others but we should have the choice to spend our money as we wish. Part of the incentive to working hard, getting promoted and a pay rise is the financial freedom it brings. We pay for private schooling, private healthcare and nice holidays but we're relatively frugal in other areas such as clothes, cars etc.

I went to a grammar school which gets outstanding academic results. The cost of most housing in their catchment area is equally a barrier which means not many low income families can access the grammar schools either.

My point is that there's excellent state schools and there's state schools that are below par. Invariably there's some correlation between wealth and the ability to access the better state schools, whether that's affording a house in their catchment area, paying for 11 plus tutoring or having a parent with the time to help them prepare for the entrance exams (if there are exams). I don't see it just as a private v state debate, there's huge variation within the state schools too.

@SpicyChickpeas

My ideal world is one of lots of differences, no one set way to live or be or spend your money, people on many different incomes and taking different school choices from picking a Saudi inspired boarding school to Eton.

Similar here although I would describe it as living somewhere where the state does not interfere with your life.

On thing that struck me when I moved back here was how involved the school was in my DC's lives. I felt like the teachers and head were making notes on us. I had a few comments where I was asked why my DS had a scratch on his face and told it was going to be put on his record. Turned out one of my DS's classmates had done it, ironically he was badly behaved and the school did nothing about it, but hey...go and blame the parent and put it on his record why don't you? I know that there are many abused DC in this country, but there are many parents who are decent so don't stick us all in the same bag. The state controls DC and their parents via their schools. That's how I see it and I never saw this in my overseas schools. To me, it is very intrusive.

There have been a number of times where I have had to tell my school that thanks, but we are his parents and we will make the decisions. In fact I got so sick of their interference that I ended up doing all my extra curricular activities off site because I wanted to have more of a life away from their watchful eye.

In fact, one of the reasons why I think our DC's education is so poor nowadays is because teachers are too busy parenting DC, as told to do so by the state, to have any joy or enthusiasm or time to teach properly.

My children are in private but we at state for years.

And I never encountered this! The school in question sounds peculiar. And shit .

I’m with @Sethy38 I’ve never experienced this in either state or private

Maybe the pay/not pay debate is too polarised in the uk. I know that some European countries have a system where you can pay a smallish (£500) per year fee to send your child to a school outside your catchment area that has good facilities for a particular subject or special need. The extra funding pays for the facility housed in a government school.

The only way of creating a completely level playing field is to remove children from their parents at birth and raise them in a communal facility. Would free up parents to concentrate on their career :)

@NikeDeLaSwoosh
We’re not equal, and trying to artificially create equality has failed every time it has been attempted.
I don't think we should be trying to make everyone equal, clearly everyone has different aptitudes and temperaments. But I think we should have equality of provision in education as that creates more equal options. My brother's cohort at A level are a nice example of the glass floor. Their excellent private school teaching strict control of time, endless push to get them to study and revise means most of them got decent A levels. Obviously the able got A's but most got Bs and C's they also all went to ok uni's. But they really were not the most able/academic. They were protected from falling. Most also have decent careers, they secured internships with mates parents, went into the family business/their school contacts firms etc etc. Tbh if it was on sheer aptitude alone many of them would be middle management in Currys (and they are doing much better than that).
Clearly private school buys you something (or frankly why pay). It seems to me that what it buys you is opportunity. So the best and brightest in the UK don't rise to the top (well some do, but many don't). It's why despite the tiny percentage of people educated in private schools many top roles and careers are still dominated by privately educated individuals. I was once responsible for hiring in an insanely competitive industry, we would attract endless applicants with stellar academic results and a massive skew to privately educated people (mainly because you'd have to intern for ages to get a foot in the door). I'd interview (basic competency interview) and be stunned by how intellectually average they were, despite the good grades on paper.
Personally I would like a system that had much better equality of opportunity. I don't know if that means abolishing private schools, but I do know the current system of buying advantage entrenches dismal social mobility, wasters enormous talent and probably contributes massively to the collective group think that bedevils many of our institutions causing terrible governance and impacts like the 2008 financial crisis

* , they secured internships with mates parents, went into the family business/their school contacts firms etc etc. Tbh if it was on sheer aptitude alone many of them would be middle management in Currys (and they are doing much better than that). *

@hettie

Take away private schooling and their parents would still have had contacts to secure these internships etc

A lot of the opinions on here are based on financial advices 30 years ago.

Now you can’t just hire someone in banking because your mate’s son needs a job.

I was in banking just over 20 years ago. We got a grad in an internship. He met the requirements. However... His father and my boss were old school friends and quite possibly strings has been pulled.

By the end of the week he’d been asked to leave.he was late and incompetent.

That was 20 years ago and contacts didn’t count for much.

Now... he wouldn't even get a look in as competition so fierce

My dds godfather works in tv, very high up. He can't just get her a job, sadly. It doesn't work like that any more

@Sethy38 You are quite right, this was late 90's. I am now in another stupidly competitive field (clearly I'm easily bored and like a challenge ). It's a bit better, but still not equitable tbh and it's an area that as a society we should really really want a varied workforce... So it's edged a little bit forward in terms of hires but it's still pretty dire. Social mobility has tanked (the gaps are bigger), we have a massive productivity problem and a real problem with leadership (well at least high quality leaders).
I don't know how we move on from here, but clinging to people's individual rights to buy an advantage for their own clearly isn't doing much for us as a nation. I think we are all loosing in this...

Yabvu, personally I use an Independant school as I work full time and they have wrap around care with sports until 6.45, I don't want to use a childminder, my dc can also board if I have to work late or be away overnight, why should I not be able to pay to have this choice?

Having gone from primary state to private secondary, the independent school is a breath of fresh air. Nothing to do with opportunity and everything to do with unlimited expectations, a blatant can-do attitude, content not limited to the curriculum and teachers not running to unions every 5 minutes. I would never go back to state. The only positive from state is that my daughter has notably more resilience than some of her all-life privately educated peers. But also less confidence initially.

Both my sister and I took the 11 plus. We both passed, but my tinpot socialist mother wouldn’t allow us to go. She didn’t want to spend her money on school uniform when she needed it for her cigs. So we went to the local shitty secondary modern school (that was renamed a comp but all it’s books still had secondary modern stamped in them) go figure.

So the education (or lack of) that we received was not the best.

Go forward 20 years and I moved heaven and earth to provide my dd with a decent education.

Readers, I sent her to a private school.