.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

@EuropeanRoller

I'm not going to deprive my child of opportunities because not everyone can afford the same.

This is why the state has a responsibility to strive for equal opportunities for everyone.

But where does it end? Am I not allowed to go out for dinner because someone else can't afford to do so? Not allowed central heating because someone else can't afford to put theirs on? I appreciate I'm being absurd but my point remains.

In an ideal world, the yes they should be scrapped and all state schools excellent.
The state sector needs to be funded properly and selective state schools (grammar/any religious schools) scrapped.

*Sorry - you think it's acceptable that people's opportunities in life depend on who their parents are.

Yes maybe I do. I genuinely believe life isn't fair and live accordingly.

I do not believe anyone should live in poverty anywhere, but I also don't think people should be allowed to dictate how people spend their money.

If the quality of education and experiences offered by private schools and state schools were the same, most private schools would close. If class sizes were as small in state, if they were as well funded, why would you pay out? A few who need to use boarding schools or want the name of the top private schools might still pay, but most "normal" prep schools and private secondary schools would shut down. You don't pay for something you can get equally as good and as conveniently for free.

Closing private schools is an easy way to level education, its leveling down. Everyone has the inferior product.

Stop state schools being the inferior product, and people won't both paying out. (Our dcs are in state school)

I'd be interested to hear what other better steps you think we can take to reduce the gap between richest and poorest?

There are already many widening access programmes for children who are deprived. Some universities accept lower grades from those who went to poorer performing state schools. There are also access courses for people who didn't receive the grades to get into courses due to reasons linked to deprivation. My brother is currently studying medicine due to the help of such a scheme, my cousin graduated as a doctor 2 years ago. Neither of them would have gained access to medicine had it not been for the helping hand up as a result of them coming from poorer, more deprived backgrounds.

Growing up poor and having a deprived childhood isn't as much of a barrier to doing well as it was 30 years ago. I grew up in a sink estate with parents on benefits so I'm not completely unaware of how being poor can affect ones life path. Yes of course it can and does still impact on a child's life path however there are plenty of schemes in place to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor. Still lots to be done though.

You’ll get a bad result here, this is Mn where most are middle class and send their children to private schools. Prob the wrong place to put this 😂

@Lippyheaven

You’ll get a bad result here, this is Mn where most are middle class and send their children to private schools. Prob the wrong place to put this 😂

Hardly the prevailing stance on this thread...

My kids are state school but I would never ban other provision.

@EuropeanRoller This is why the state has a responsibility to strive for equal opportunities for everyone.

Agree with this but, as said in my previous post even though my country provides free education and back it with a 'salary' to study, not all seek further education. Granted a lot go to university at some point, but a lot drops out and we still have around 10 per cent adults, who are considered illiterate (2013 numbers). You can lead the horse to water, but not make it drink.

My point being that no matter what the state does a lot will have been given the opportunity, but for various reasons not been able to make use of those opportunities.

Question is 'a lot' plural?

Money should give you an advantage. Otherwise people wouldn't aspire to be successful and there would be massive holes in our workforce and even more people applying for unskilled, low paid jobs. Why bother working harder to earn more money if you cant use that to give yourself and your children and grandchildren a better life?

We took our eldest out of his state high school after several incidents with unruly children disrupting the class. I also wasn’t happy with the level of education he was receiving - he wasn’t being pushed/or challenged at all (not the teachers fault - they don’t have the time or provision to deal with highly academic children in many state schools).
My other dc’s now go to academic private schools with children of a similar mindset (not necessarily wealth-related, my ds’s school has a brilliant bursary/scholarship system in place). But they have to be very bright to get in.
So my question is: Why should academic/hard working children have to make do with an inferior education with very little attention from their teachers as they are often too busy just trying to control the class? Some children come from backgrounds where they don’t give a stuff about education or even giving basic respect to their teachers - is it fair to put them all together and expect the ones who want to get on and work to suck it up?
As I see it we are taking some strain away from an overloaded, underfunded education system.
There are children at my dc’s schools who are not wealthy at all but their parents do without nice cars/holidays etc in order to prioritise their children education. How can you say it is wrong to want the best for your child and make it happen?

We took our eldest out of his state high school after several incidents with unruly children disrupting the class. I also wasn’t happy with the level of education he was receiving - he wasn’t being pushed/or challenged at all (not the teachers fault - they don’t have the time or provision to deal with highly academic children in many state schools).

This is, so often the case. If parents disciplined their children, this wouldn't happen. Down to shitty parenting again. The problem is not money....

@Loubylou79 lazy thinking on your part.

So my daughter will be an adult surrounded by men sure (as am I in a male dominated industry) but this doesn't mean she needs to go to a mixed sex school.

Mixed secondary schools are a shit show for girls. Especially those who are SEN, non conforming etc

I prefer to give her a better education experience than that thanks

Again referring to my country sorry, we don't have schools segregated by sex. What is the deal/tradition with that? If you want equality surely it would be more healthy to mix?

You'll just end up with even more of a divide as parents will "private tutor" on mass @katnyps

@Robbybobtail
Sorry if I'm oversimplifying but what I'm hearing is that the state system is inadequate / our society has degraded to such a point that the state system cannot cope with the attitude of some students and as such provides an inadequate education and therefore you need to attend a private school if you want an adequate education. To me, that just seems unacceptable. What could be done to make sure the average child gets a good education in a state school?

I agree but I doubt it will ever happen, and you certainly won't get the wealthy middle classes of Mumsnet to agree. If only Clement Attlee hadn't had such a fond regard for his public school things might have been different. I think it would transform our country for the better into a much more equal, fair and respectful society. But power in this country is mostly held by people who went to private schools, and they don't want equality, they want to keep their privileges and to pass them on to their children.

Private school, more than any other use of wealth, gives children a leg up forever. Getting rid of them wouldn't stop money being something to aspire to. Going on nice holidays, living in a big house, going to nice restaurants, having a nice car, even extra curricular activities - these are all ways in which wealthier children are advantaged and have better lives. But education is different in that its impact affects future earnings potential, likelihood of getting a satisfying and enjoyable job, getting into your preferred university, plus other things like social confidence and influential contacts. It has a ripple effect throughout a person's life and onto future generations. Going out to posh restaurants every night is hardly comparable.

I do understand why some people choose private. Most people are going to get whatever advantages they can for their own children. And I understand why some children don't do well in the underfunded state system. But if every government minister and wealthy businessman had to use the state system, I think we'd see improvements very quickly.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe closing private schools would have any impact on state education. The children from private schools would be home educated by tutors or they would be sent to boarding school abroad. Whatever they decided to do, it wouldn't include sending Tarquin to your local comprehensive.

And if it did, the state sector would presumably need a huge amount of funding to cope with the massive influx of former private school pupils.

Private schools exist because the state sector isn’t very good, not the other way round.

I’ll spend my very hard worked for money on whatever I choose OP It’s not up to you or anyone else to restrict my choices 😏

@bluegovan
Yeah I agree with your perspective

Very naive. As people have mentioned, the postcode lottery of state education is even more unfair!

I went to school in Germany when there was a strong grammar school system. Although private schools existed, almost no one went private. Nowadays they are trying to convert to the (allegedly fairer - everyone is equal) comprehensive system and parents who can afford it, are going privately. If you destroy the state grammar system, parents are forced into the private sector.

Anyway, the pandemic has proved how inept and underfunded state schools are. My daughter is in a private prep and they have full day live lessons over Teams, all were given new school laptops etc. Can state schools afford to do that?

Would be absolutely great for me, my house price would go through the roof, as I'm in a catchment with a good school and it would kick of a scramble to get the private school population into the best state schools.

Not quite what you were looking for, I suspect.

The aim should be to make state schools so good that it's not worth paying for private schooling. Since Gove's reforms, a lot of small prep schools have gone out of business as standards have risen. So for a prep to survive it needs to be very good. Some private secondaries that weren't exceptional have closed too, but not in such great numbers.

Scrapping private schools will simply mean more parents buying themselves into the good state schools, pushing more of the middle class children out of them into the middle rate schools, which will eventually become more sought after when middle class parents buy in to them. It will do nothing to help the kids in the poorer areas who will still be taught in sink schools which are badly funded.

The answer is to improve state schools, and even to provide more bursaries and scholarships for poorer kids (rather than to middle class parents who can't quite afford the fees) to attend private schools.

@XelaM
I think your last paragraph highlights the issue