.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

One policy to level up schools?

I think limiting class sizes to twenty (with qualified teachers in the right subjects specialism)

I think this would mean better payscales needed to attract certain subjects. It would create less workload as 20 in a group is a lot less so better retention too.

So huge budget needed.

@katnyps

I suppose I'm approaching this issue from the perspective that I already believe that economic disparity in the UK is a problem, which we need to address. If you don't agree with this first assumption then this probably isn't the thread for you. If you do agree with this first point, then I'd be interested to hear what other better steps you think we can take to reduce the gap between richest and poorest? In my opinion (hence post) education is so fundamental that we should start there.

For me, it comes down to investing in the parents.

Schools are actually mostly fine at teaching, but the kids that come from disadvantaged homes remain ten steps behind their peers. That's a gap that just doesn't go away, because the middle class kids are always on to the next advantage.

One of the most successful schools I work with have a massive programme of supporting the parents with adult education and parenting.

(I was mulling the idea of the grammar system actually being diverted to the lowest performing cohort - the brightest kids would remain in the straight school system with less diversion from less able kids, and the lowest performing kids get focused support)

@LetItGoGo

So you are not baffled then..

I am when people want exacting equality for all.

I'm from an odd background, few opportunities, no real involvement from my parents in schooling etc. I'm not bitter about everyone doing much better than me.

Yes I’d go with class size reduction if one thing.

@MarshaBradyo

It bites its own tail so to speak, if you are poorly educated chances are you don't put much emphasis on education and will have a much harder time helping your children forward.

The U.K. is further impacted by inequality / a more obvious class system which is hard to fix

I had a rubbish education but I'm damn well going to see that my child has the very best and by that I mean I will support them as much as I possibly can.

@MrsDoylesTea please say that's not sarcasm

Let's have national garages run by the DFE for car servicing and fixing -where you have to go to your local one and not get a choice, same for supermarkets, dentists, hospitals, hairdressers. Doesn't matter what you can afford you have to pay what you are charged.

I was passionate about state education and taught in it for over 20 years. I've been sworn at daily, bullied by SLT, not had any resourced to do my job etc, hit by pupils, hit by parents. Never had less than 'outstanding' in any PM or lesson observation. I been lectured daily by lots of (mainly men) people telling me how to teach and what I need to do -no MUST do in each lesson, paperwork, constant complaints from students and parents.

Now I teach in a private school (top indep) and it's a joy. The students are well mannered, polite and they do what they are asked and more -they are kind and grateful. I have no more than 15 in the class and any support is greatly appreciated. We receive no funding from the government -so this says money for the NHS etc.

To achieve the level playing field you are after, you would also have to ban tutors, private music lessons, extra curricular sports and activities.

Seeking common ground on this, I think a majority of people would agree about equality of opportunity.

Having access to a good level of education opportunities isn't equivalent to simply BEING prettier, taller. It's more like having access to healthcare and food so you aren't pock marked and shorter than your DNA would have allowed ! 😄

Prettier people have lots more opportunities. It's a fact. Some people are so pretty they don't even need an education.

f you are poorly educated chances are you don't put much emphasis on education and will have a much harder time helping your children forward.*

HOw to break that cycle?

Where to intervene?

"One of the most successful schools I work with have a massive programme of supporting the parents with adult education and parenting"

Yes I agree - and it needs to be made crystal clear that all parents need to engage with primary dc too unless they are really flying ahead.

I waited too long to intervene with one dc.

I think people who can afford to pay for their kids education should pay. Not £15k a year but a percentage of their wage.

That's what the tax system is for. It's a slippery slope to start having different taxes to pay for different services. If you do it for education, then you should do it for healthcare and all other "government" paid for services. It's already bad enough with the student loan shambles where some pay, others don't, etc. And anyway, do we really want to make the World's most complicated tax system even more complicated??

Much better early years provision with proper support for parents. MC children start school ahead.

After school homework clubs so all DC have a quiet place to work with access to a computer and books.

Continuing push for apprenticeships as working your way up can be less daunting than going away to University

@LickEmbysmiling

f you are poorly educated chances are you don't put much emphasis on education and will have a much harder time helping your children forward.*

HOw to break that cycle?

Where to intervene?

"One of the most successful schools I work with have a massive programme of supporting the parents with adult education and parenting"

Yes I agree - and it needs to be made crystal clear that all parents need to engage with primary dc too unless they are really flying ahead.

I waited too long to intervene with one dc.

I think you first have to appreciate that there are different groups of parents to target, which need VERY different forms of motivation.

You have the disadvantaged parents who have poor education, low incomes, etc., but who are engaged and would give their kids lots of encouragement etc given the right resources etc. They just need to be pointed in the right direction and supported/encouraged by the schools.

Then you have the disengaged parents who just aren't interested and won't do anything, however easy it is and however many resources are handed to them on a plate. These are the ones who can't even get the kids fed and dressed properly, or get them to turn up to school with the right books etc. They need something completely different from the school.

As always, one size doesn't fit all.

That private school teachers get public sector pensions pisses me off immensely.

@Beenaboutabit

That private school teachers get public sector pensions pisses me off immensely.

Do they! That's a bit...

plumpootle
Hi OP - 100% agree! Doesn't matter about private tutoring or whatever, rich parents in a state system would push up quality for all. Private education makes me feel sick.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe closing private schools would have any impact on state education. The children from private schools would be home educated by tutors or they would be sent to boarding school abroad. Whatever they decided to do, it wouldn't include sending Tarquin to your local comprehensive.

@PreschoolattheRitz

What is everyone's obsession with equality anyway?

It's actually baffling to me. I accept some people are prettier, wealthier, funnier, fitter, taller than me and just get on with life.

You think people should have better opportunities in life based on who their parents are?

@EuropeanRoller I didn't say should, but I am saying it's a fact of life.

I don't like it but I send mine to private school. If I were a Catholic I could send them to one of the best state schools in the country (1 1/2 milesup the road). That is even more annoying than private school IMHO

So where do we stop in stopping folk from paying for education? Do we prevent people paying for an hours after school maths tuition just because other poorer folk can't afford it?

[quote katnyps]@Teddy1970
Great - thanks for the example.
As for Unis I think that is a totally different argument - I think everyone needs education at secondary school level but not everyone wants to go to Uni. I'm also Scottish so if my daughter has the smarts she could go to whichever Scottish Uni is best for what she's interested in and it wouldn't cost me a penny; more of an argument down south, granted[/quote]
www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

I'm not going to deprive my child of opportunities because not everyone can afford the same.

This is why the state has a responsibility to strive for equal opportunities for everyone.

[quote PreschoolattheRitz]@EuropeanRoller I didn't say should, but I am saying it's a fact of life. [/quote]
Sorry - you think it's acceptable that people's opportunities in life depend on who their parents are.

PS. regarding policy recommendations, I understand a lot of people here are saying it's down to motivated parents. Whilst I totally agree, a more difficult question.. is there anything we could do as a country that would encourage a wider range of parents (or enable them) to be motivated regarding their childrens' education?

This is what the free nursery hours is about. Getting children socialised with other children, interested in learning and broadening their horizons.