.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

@bluegovan
"The final sentence here is the key one. You are asserting that educational choice is an important right. You defend that right by insisting on a system where only 7% get to exercise that right.

Maybe a better funded, better resourced state system would give more choice to a greater number of families."

Your first and second points are not mutually exclusive. There is no need to scrap the schools for the 7%. That will do nothing for the other 93% - it is solving for the wrong issue. The issue is underfunding and inadequacies in the state sector. That is what needs to be addressed. Smaller classes, greater rigor focus on discipline and achievement, better interventions and support for those with problems, be they mental, physical or social.

@Empressofthemundane I totally get that and in many other areas would come down on the side of a more liberal perspective. The balance between freedom of choice and individual rights and societal needs/rights are always going to be much debated and everyone will be somewhere on that line. I think for me because education is about children then in some ways I favour a more interventionist stance. This maybe to do with my background, I work in an area in which I see many many parents making terrible choices for their children which have profound impacts. Even at the less damaging end of things parents make choices about what they value (religious beliefs, success in sports, academic prowess, confidence in public speaking) that very very often are not focused on who their child actually is and not in the best interests of the child. So...I think the state has more of a role in providing something that is in the best interests of the child than many parents would like to acknowledge.
My ideal would be to have a state system that privileges the child with highly skilled educators that are child focused and get the best for that child. I don't think either system achieves that currently. The state because successive governments have been too focused on a narrow curriculum, endless testing and not giving professionals autonomy. In private sectors they claim to be doing just that but the fee paying element means they have to attend to what parents want (which will vary from schools to school, but lets say- top exam results, entry to good universities, elite sports, excellent facilities and teaching in the arts...). Now in theory a parent might say, well my child has a natural affinity and ability in sports so I'll send them to Millfield or they are amazing at drama so you send them to Bedales...But the reality is that very very often it is about the parents aspiration, they want them to be great at sports, they want academic achievement so they send them where they think they will get that. They (will of course) say that they want the best for their child, but actually loving and nurturing your child for who they are not what they do is surprisingly uncommon. So dare I say it, we might need to take that away from parents a bit, because they aren't that great at it (or run some kind of massive psychoeducation campaign about childhood development).

I do see your point @herethereandeverywhere and I agree there are two points.

There's the idea that it's just fundamentally unfair in terms of equality of opportunity. But, to go back to the first few pages of the thread, there is also the argument that we are segregating 7% of society, who are then over-represented in positions of power, so that many who are making govt policy, running the judicial system, influencing our cultural output, among other things, have a limited understanding of the people they are making decisions for or influencing. I think that's a fundamentally wrong way to run a country.

I suppose if a lot of brakes were put on this power (by hugely widening access to top universities, professions, etc), then it might not be such a problem. It would also need that huge investment in state education. But, having seen attempts at that fail repeatedly over the decades, I think many of us feel that things might change more rapidly if those in power had to use the system they control.

The Trafford state grammar schools are good and comparable in terms of results to private schools. The house prices in catchment areas reflects that, the Altrincham grammars especially so.

@Empressofthemundane. I understand your point. Catholic schools are a good example of this although there has also been pressure to close them from some quarters. They do extremely well in Manchester with similar funding and intake to surrounding schools. As an ex teacher, I don’t have great confidence in the state to plan and manage the improvements that need to made in the state school system. Maybe the could start by going into Catholic schools and figuring out what it is they are doing to make a difference.

@bluegovan

The disability group that use my private school on a Sat morning may disagree with you. The karate, Judo, drama and other groups may also get upset if they don't get to use the facilities either

These kind of groups do also use state school facilities you know? In my area almost every state school is open outside school hours for community classes, groups, meetings, etc. Those currently using private school facilities could continue to do so when those schools are moved into the state system.

Saying that the government will buy schools that are no longer private is naive and idealistic. They just won't do it. It is too expensive

Why not? As a country we need to invest more in education. I've already written a pp about this, but only privately owned schools would need to be bought. Many are not in private ownership (including Eton, Harrow, etc). Others could replace existing school buildings which are no longer fit for purpose and those sites could be sold. There are lots of ways of making income from school properties, which many state schools already use.

those who are calling for private schools to be abolished don't care about any of that. They just want the schools gone. And probably quite enjoy the prospect of ‘posh kids’ being —bullied— taken down a peg or two

Some of you really don't have any respect for other people's views or understand that people who disagree with you can do so without resentment, sour grapes, envy, etc, etc. I would hate to see any child bullied, whatever their background. Why can't we just have a debate, and respect that others can feel differently to you without being motivated by hatred, envy or wishing violence on other people's children? This kind of attitude really strengthens my belief that it's wrong to have so much social segregation - some of you seem very fearful of people from different backgrounds.

Absolutely. Them mantra that oh private schools with charitable status (yes I know they don't all have it) help the community is a duff one, given ALL state schools I've ever come across do the self same thing. They are hubs of their local communities.

I think you guys understand me.

The principal that your children don’t belong to the state, and that parents should make choices for them is important.

I have my own ideas about what is best for children, and I would be quite happy to exert my will in everyone else, but I wouldn’t want other people to interfere with me and what I think is best for my children. So, I back off and respect other people’s choices for their children. Only in exceptional circumstances does the state intervene. Opinions about education are generally not exceptional enough that the state should be interfering and coercing.

It’s a slippery slope.

No, we live in a capitalist society and people are free to choose what to buy, including education.

bluegovan

We will have to agree to disagree that posters have addressed how they will tackle the problem of wealthy people pushing up house prices near to the outstanding/good schools and also how to deal with the problem of rich people paying for private tuition to give their children and edge, because i haven’t seen that addressed properly on this thread- and I asked it on page 9 .

I’m a school governor, I have also previously worked in primary and secondary schools and the main reason private education is so successful is because of class sizes, how would you emulate this in state schools? It would cost billions more every year , where would the money come from ?

You still haven’t answered where you would send all the SEN children ?

On the human rights point the European Convention is not an EU thing and never has been. It is "European" so the UK leaving the EU doe snot change our law in the human rights area. It would take an amendment to the Human Rights Act 1998 to do that.

@Blackberrycream

In Manchester that is not the case. Where are you getting your statistics from Seth? White children are still in the majority at state schools too I would think as we are a white majority country. I would imagine it’s only relevant to really compare demographics of ethnic mix in relation to other schools in that geographic area. There is no useful comparison to be made between a rural village school in Wales and a private school in Manchester and vice versa. This thread has changed direction a bit but there is a wider point about assumptions. I can only speak on this from my personal experience and those of friends and family. Removing alternatives to the state system would have had massively detrimental effects on us. Watch the small axe BBC drama concerning expectations for black students. It’s not just history. Something very similar nearly happened to my son. Going further back, I would not have had the education or opportunities that allowed me to challenge his treatment and do something to change it, without the opportunity I was given. I doubt I would be given that opportunity these days. There is a lot of simplistic thinking around the issue of schooling ( more funding!). People need to talk more and try to understand other people’s perspectives, ‘ champagne socialists’ especially so in my opinion.

I learned a lot from this post Thank you

@TriflePudding

bluegovan

We will have to agree to disagree that posters have addressed how they will tackle the problem of wealthy people pushing up house prices near to the outstanding/good schools and also how to deal with the problem of rich people paying for private tuition to give their children and edge, because i haven’t seen that addressed properly on this thread- and I asked it on page 9 .

I’m a school governor, I have also previously worked in primary and secondary schools and the main reason private education is so successful is because of class sizes, how would you emulate this in state schools? It would cost billions more every year , where would the money come from ?

You still haven’t answered where you would send all the SEN children ?

A few of the suggestions for the catchment issue: larger catchments, strict banding to ensure places are offered to a representative range of abilities, ballots for oversubscription. I mentioned earlier that one school which successfully uses all of these methods is Cardinal Vaughan, a very high achieving Catholic comprehensive with a catchment area of the whole of greater London. AFAIK there is no way even the most devout and wealthy Catholic can get into the school buy buying a house nearby.

Private SEN schools would stay as specialist SEN schools within the state system, including boarding if needed. I think the state system could learn from anywhere that's doing this well. And more investment in specialist provision within mainstream schools - support staff, smaller class sizes. My dcs both have SEN issues (as do I and dh). They've been in mainstream school but needed far more support than was on offer. They have coped, but I know many who haven't coped at all, including a couple of boys who have missed at least a year of school through lack of SEN support. Tbh I don't think SEN is a problem in terms of knowing what is needed, the biggest problem is chronic underfunding. It's a separate issue, but I think we also desperately need an overhaul and a huge amount of additional funding for all children's mental health services.

Tbh I don't think SEN is a problem in terms of knowing what is needed, the biggest problem is chronic underfunding. It's a separate issue, but I think we also desperately need an overhaul and a huge amount of additional funding for all children's mental health services

On this I definitely agree with you !

Xenia thank you for clearing up the ECHR question.

So I guess Freedom of education is the right for parents to have their children educated in accordance with their religious and other views, allowing groups to be able to educate children without being impeded by the nation state would be useful for private schools in the event of a Labour government attempting to abolish them.

Hettie - I’m glad you hedge your responses by saying ‘ideally’. The state is an appalling parent. The idea that the state knows better than parents in most or even in a significant minority of cases is laughable. You only need to look at the appalling outcomes for children in care in the U.K. to see that that is the worst possible idea. I’m afraid that I feel particularly strongly about this given recent personal experience mentoring cared for children and seeing the utter lack of resource, common sense and basic kindness in their treatment. In particular, little regard is paid to their education and the need for stability in one place.

Discipline, you can't discipline a child who is doesn't understand what's going on out of being bored.

Need to chuck everything at early years to identify these issues and sort them out, support through dc and be flexible.

I shudder to think how many dc like mine are locked out of Reading by a refusal to simply do other reading techniques.

It's actually an few things colliding re sen, lack of sen training in teacher training, lack of strategy because teachers don't know them, an old guard who have a culture that sen don't exist yes apparently dyslexia is nonsense!!

Then because of lack of knowledge... That spirals out to other things. Some which could be easily addressed without massive funding, but if its not taught who knows??

I've met a sen specialist who does go out to school but mainly private school to give tips.. Nothing that requires massive ££ or resources at all, just some thinking outside the box...

@Sethy38, see my other post about Withington Girls School in Manchester. Results always top 10 in country, often top 5. Fees around 12k a year. Manchester Grammar fees are similar. I work in education and although not a teacher, my salary is similar. We seriously considered taking up the Withington place but instead my DD took up a place at Altrincham Girls state grammar whose results aren’t much lower and also acclaimed nationally. If the difference in attainment had been bigger, we’d have paid. Personally, I think 12k per year for a top 5 in the country education is extremely good value.

There’s so much reference on here to 7% and taking the top jobs etc. Only a small minority of that 7% are at public schools and indeed boarding schools where that sort of networking comes into play. The majority of privately educated kids are at day school and their parents are just standard professionals without the sort of networking clout found at public school. Also, a large percentage of those will have attended state primaries.

"Private SEN schools would stay as specialist SEN schools within the state system, including boarding if needed."

If they became state schools local authorities would get rid of them to save money. You don't need to provide what a child needs if it isn't available.

There are plenty of SEN children at private schools in general - they are not necessarily at dedicated private schools for SEN.

YANBU OP.

(so people that currently spend their money on private fees paid it in taxes)

I pay 30K a year school fees for my 2DC. There is no way I would be prepared to pay that in more tax. If that happened I would leave the country. I've worked in other countries and I can quite easily do it again after the pandemic is lifted. Or, if I was just working to pay tax, I would go part time and/or get a less stressful job. Many would follow.

If you want me to pay more tax, then why don't you also get another job or improve your skills to get a promotion or change jobs so you earn more and pay more tax so our state schools have more money?

Another idealistic and unrealistic response.

If you want me to pay more tax, then why don't you also get another job or improve your skills to get a promotion or change jobs so you earn more and pay more tax so our state schools have more money?

Yes, or maybe those who say they can easily afford school fees but nonetheless use state schools as they have principles should maybe donate what they would be spending on fees to their dcs’ state school.

I think you will find that principles go out the window when ones lifestyle and bank balance are under threat.

If they became state schools local authorities would get rid of them to save money. You don't need to provide what a child needs if it isn't available

The law would be changed to prevent this happening. Maybe a specialist sub-department of the education ministry would be directly responsible for SEN provision? So many of the objections assume that everything will stay the same, just private schools being brought into the state sector, whereas almost everyone in favour has argued for a whole raft of changes to the existing system, including far better SEN provision.

Yes, or maybe those who say they can easily afford school fees but nonetheless use state schools as they have principles should maybe donate what they would be spending on fees to their dcs’ state school

As I've said previously, why should people use private donations to try and rectify something that can only be rectified by government action and paid for by tax revenue? It can only ever be a mini plaster over a huge wound.