.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

If I didn’t send my child to private school because someone like you made the rules and private schools were abolished I would then use my money to travel to the best state school for my kids to attend.

I would also spend my money on private tutoring and private extra curricular classes.

And for any money left over, I would save it for my kids so when I die they can have money to start building their lives the way they see fit.

It’s natural to want the best for my kids given the fact I’ve spent the last x amount of years looking after them and will continue to spend the next x amount of years looking after them.

It’s quite simple. I want the best for my kids. And will make every decision based on what the best outcome for them will be.

Tutor for us has simply been a way of accessing an education full stop.

A class of 30 and one teacher and one ta is not enough at all to support my dd. She doesn't even need that much support!

Older dd is getting targeted special help for maths issues... And she's already good at it but again, she is top set but struggles with certain concepts eg algebra and there is no way in lessons can she sort out the issue with it, so tutor is the only way

Sorry that cut off before I finished. A few years ago I couldn't afford to buy help in and the idea that I shouldn't buy in this help because it will disadvantage the others is preposterous.

I can't support them in this issue and it's a luxury to be able to buy help in.

Tirama

I agree re parents being too passive sometimes but we also live in a culture, of not being that parent and having unrealistic ideas of what a school can do.

I'd have happily done more to support dd but I was led to believe it was all normal and ok and things would click. No plan, strategy, I just clicked myself one day and thought, this isn't right and kicked support, via tutors into place.

Definitely needs to be more two way support via teachers and parents.

Over 500,00 children are privately educated in the UK. A very high % of whom are on bursaries. I'd think only about 30% of the children at my children's prep school paid full fees. Where would all these children be educated? As many of them probably live in the catchments of good schools/could afford to buy property on these catchment areas fewer local children will get in.

@Corcory

Over 500,00 children are privately educated in the UK. A very high % of whom are on bursaries. I'd think only about 30% of the children at my children's prep school paid full fees. Where would all these children be educated? As many of them probably live in the catchments of good schools/could afford to buy property on these catchment areas fewer local children will get in.

Source for bursary info?

It will depend on the school. My guess is that in most day private schools most are paying most of the fees although even in our case my twins had a music scholarship so £1k each off the fees a year and at prep school my older son - we paid 15% of the fees not 100% because his father taught at the same school so I suppose in our reasonably well off family 3 of the 5 were not on full fee all the time.

However go to somewhere like Manchester grammar (private school) and they want to recruit pupils blindly to what parents earn and I would guess 30% don't pay. Eton similarly has a lot of money so has more on full scholarships not paying anything. Very much depends on the school.

If 20% are at private school by sixth form I wonder how many are at state grammars or top state schools? Surely in terms of numbers there is more of an unfairness between children at good state schools and those at bad state schools than the private/state divide? And what about good home educating parents (like our Queen's parents)? If they ensure their children does better than at a state school should be penalise them too?

The people who are all for banning private schools haven’t addressed how they will tackle the push in house prices around the outstanding/good schools ? Or how they will tackle the inequality of rich parents will paying for private tuition ?

Also what about the SEN children ? Many of whom can’t attend mainstream schools because of the sheer size, the number of children in classes, curriculum which they can’t access etc .

Scholarships or bursaries for particular skills are as much about the school accessing talent as the child getting charity. Zenia you must be a very high earning individual, and genuinely, good for for you. So 1k off fees of what? £15k isn't much of an issue. It also secures a particular talent for that school. Our comp occasionally loses such talent to the nearby (loosely selective) private school. Fortuneately the private school is 17 miles away (we've in rural cornwall) so few go for scholarships and drag talent away.

My point is it's not a simple charitable transaction.

Who is going to pay for the upkeep of these ex public schools? Maintaining listed buildings and sports facilities is one of the reasons for the huge fees.

Andante's point is very valid. In fact, I have first hand experience of this. Where I live we have a private school that is hundreds of years old. It went bust a couple of years ago. 250 DC had to find other school places and really struggled. They ended up in schools an hour away and many state schools couldn't accommodate them.

The school had a massive building, pool and the best sports grounds around. It had cooking facilities. The school was actually in a cast iron covenant to be kept as an education facility. Parents and many local organisations lobbied for it to be kept as a school. Our town and its surrounding areas has had a population explosion due to mass house projects. In fact, the reason why I sent my DC to private was because when I moved here I couldn't get a local school place for my 8 year old. When I applied to my local state secondary, 1 mile away, he was rejected and he was offered his 4th choice of school, 9 miles away.

Many people fought to have this ready to go, empty private school made into an extension of the local comp, a 6th form college, a mixture of all etc.

However, it was deemed "too expensive" and the land was sold to a housing developer and will be turned into flats and the grounds into a housing estate. Where those hundreds of extra families are going to end their DC I don't know. Oh, actually I do. They will go to the local schools and local secondary as it is within 1/4 mile of it. Other peoples children who live 1/2 mile, 3/4 of a mile whose parents bought on the premise of them going there, will be pushed out.

Saying that the government will buy schools that are no longer private is naive and idealistic. They just won't do it. It is too expensive.

Saying that the government will buy schools that are no longer private is naive and idealistic. They just won't do it. It is too expensive

Exactly this.
However those who are calling for private schools to be abolished don't care about any of that. They just want the schools gone. And probably quite enjoy the prospect of ‘posh kids’ being —bullied— taken down a peg or two.

...not everyone should be a high flier

What an awful attitude.

Yes, OP. I absolutely think private schools should be banned. The fact that they have charitable status sticks in my throat. Get rid of them all and properly fund state schools focused around self discipline, team and confidence building. Every child deserves the best education possible, and we should be investing more as they are our nation's future. We will never see the end of inequality when it starts at age 4.

Even if you scrap private schools, you’ll still selection by other means -grammar school system for example. Although arguably this is more fair than selection based on parental income....

The fact that they have charitable status sticks in my throat.

The disability group that use my private school on a Sat morning may disagree with you. The karate, Judo, drama and other groups may also get upset if they don't get to use the facilities either.

Eton similarly has a lot of money so has more on full scholarships not paying anything

90, according to their website. That's under 7% of students. If that's a lot more than less wealthy schools, then bursaries are not doing anything to address the problem.

I wonder how many are at state grammars or top state schools? Surely in terms of numbers there is more of an unfairness between children at good state schools and those at bad state schools than the private/state divide?

You've already made this point. My answer is still no, because these are state schools and are free to attend. The bigger divide is between fee paying and non-fee paying schools.

I don't know how you judge objectively which state schools are 'good' or 'bad', so I'll leave those stats for you. I'm not sure it's relevant though, as pps have given suggestions for addressing the admissions/catchment issue, and also talked about the need for improvements and greater investment in the state system.

Even if you don't think lack of fees is the main issue, the numbers make grammars a smaller issue. There are 167,000 grammar school pupils and around 350,000-400,000 11-18s at independent schools.

The people who are all for banning private schools haven’t addressed how they will tackle the push in house prices around the outstanding/good schools ? Or how they will tackle the inequality of rich parents will paying for private tuition

This has been addressed in several pps @TriflePudding and everyone else making comments about a wave of wealthy people buying houses in popular catchment areas. There have been several sugestions for tackling this - read the thread if you are interested. There have also been several pps about tutoring and whether it's relevant.

In Australia 40% of children attend non government schools. That covers everything from Catholic schools which charge $5000/year (around £2800) to private schools charging $40000/year (£22500). Our government then tops up parent contributions, giving these schools even more money per student.

However, research has consistently found that once you adjust for socio economic status there is no difference in educational outcomes between the school sectors. So your child’s success is determined by the family they come from, not the school you choose.

Has there been similar research conducted in the UK?

This is an interesting thread. I think part of the problem is an assumption that all private schools are like Eton.

A lot of them are specialist schools, places like the Royal Ballet School, Yehudi Menuhin or Westminster Cathedral Choir School. If all private schools are to be scrapped then it means the state will have to take on the job of intensive ballet, violin or choral coaching (several hours a day) for children at boarding school. I don't think that this is the job of the state.

The disability group that use my private school on a Sat morning may disagree with you. The karate, Judo, drama and other groups may also get upset if they don't get to use the facilities either

These kind of groups do also use state school facilities you know? In my area almost every state school is open outside school hours for community classes, groups, meetings, etc. Those currently using private school facilities could continue to do so when those schools are moved into the state system.

Saying that the government will buy schools that are no longer private is naive and idealistic. They just won't do it. It is too expensive

Why not? As a country we need to invest more in education. I've already written a pp about this, but only privately owned schools would need to be bought. Many are not in private ownership (including Eton, Harrow, etc). Others could replace existing school buildings which are no longer fit for purpose and those sites could be sold. There are lots of ways of making income from school properties, which many state schools already use.

those who are calling for private schools to be abolished don't care about any of that. They just want the schools gone. And probably quite enjoy the prospect of ‘posh kids’ being —bullied— taken down a peg or two

Some of you really don't have any respect for other people's views or understand that people who disagree with you can do so without resentment, sour grapes, envy, etc, etc. I would hate to see any child bullied, whatever their background. Why can't we just have a debate, and respect that others can feel differently to you without being motivated by hatred, envy or wishing violence on other people's children? This kind of attitude really strengthens my belief that it's wrong to have so much social segregation - some of you seem very fearful of people from different backgrounds.

90 kids paying nothing is a lot!
And 300 receiving significant financial help is 20%.

some of you seem very fearful of people from different backgrounds

Bluegovan have you never read, for example, names threads?
“We like the name Camilla/Hugo etc”
“Omg, that’s a POSH name, you can’t call your dc that, he/she will be teased at school” and so on.

@Frodont

90 kids paying nothing is a lot! And 300 receiving significant financial help is 20%.

That won’t be full scholarships. Anything from 5% upwards

Similarly, how would you define "private schools"? The after school ballet schools and gymnastics classes near me charge fees and collect them through a private arrangement (usually paid in advance through their websites). So these are private schools.

My children used to go to a preschool gymnastics class which was run through a Better gym. It was notorious in the area for having queues to sign up which started hours before they opened their doors - I think they also do it online now. There was quite a lot of grumbling that, although it was technically "council-run", the class was really only available to people who were able to turn up early and queue.

So your child’s success is determined by the family they come from, not the school you choose.

The people on here just don't get this Remaker. This also goes for private schools too. The children at private school are a mixed bag. There are ones that misbehave, ones in the bottom set for maths, ones that take drugs and ones that are just not interested in school and as a result many of them do not do well. They leave school and they get average jobs just like many of the rest of the population. Next time you go into your local estate agent observe how many well spoken, well-heeled young men are in there with the gift of the gab. They are all ex private school.

Yes, a private school will give you a good education if you are prepared to engage with it. Many are not. It is the parents attitude towards education, the discipline in the house and how engaged their DC are as a result of it, that makes a massive difference. This is why so many immigrants end up with DC in top, academic jobs. It is because of the sacrifices they make and they take our education system as an opportunity. The key here is their attitude and their determination.

My mistake
90 on full
267 on financial aid

As a country we need to invest more in education

I have lived in many other countries. I paid 12% tax in one and 15% in he other with no other taxes, aside from 5% VAT, were imposed on me. These places had far superior state school facilities than the UK. The UK is the highest tax area I have every lived in. I am not prepared to pay any more tax than I already do.

I agree that education needs to be invested in, but it won't. I would have sent my DC to state if I was offered a place in a decent school, I wasn't and there was no way I was going to undo the good work I've already put in. Who in the past 20 years has invested in education to the point that we no longer needed private or grammar? No one has.

We need a better NHS, better roads, a better infrastructure, better policing, better local support and better schools. There is a queue.

I am actually not dead against abolishing private schools. What I am against is pulling mine out and being forced to put them in the 4th choice I was offered. If state schools were great, no one would send their DC to a private school, like in Germany. The solution to improving state is not to abolish private. It is to force our own government to do something about state. This is just another example of people turning on each other rather than holding the government responsible.

We are one of the richest countries in the world who pisses money up the wall and do our children a very serious disservice.