.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

No
I wasn’t questioning the facts
I believed you! I was asking a follow up question. White children dominate private schooling in this country. Fact. So it was interesting to learn more re your situation

So many children from abroad come to board. A school near us is predominantly Asian teenagers doing full boarding and a smattering of locals as day pupils. They fly home for the holidays. I'm surprised if private schooling is predominantly white to be honest.

Sethy38

I think that's my point, most people think of large private schools in London, where as elsewhere most are small (DCs is 80 kids), the other local ones are also 100 or fewer.

You do what is best for your child. And for your family.

...and not care what anyone else thinks. I may have posted a lot on here, but I don't actually care what anyone else thinks of my parenting choices. I have had such good feedback on my DC's manners, their kindness and their engagement and effort at school. I have done the right thing and have no regrets.

Someone American once told me that their contribution to society is to bring up her sons to be kind, considerate and do well at school so they can get good jobs and pay taxes. As far as I am concerned this is much more than some parents are doing.

A school near us is predominantly Asian teenagers doing full boarding and a smattering of locals as day pupils.

I used to tutor such students when I lived in HK. I would go to their tiny flats and talk with their average earning parents. These parents put every single thing they had into their DC's education. They went without and made massive sacrifices for it. To them, education is everything.

@SoUmmYeah

Sethy38

I think that's my point, most people think of large private schools in London, where as elsewhere most are small (DCs is 80 kids), the other local ones are also 100 or fewer.

Size is one thing. I’m aware that there are many small private schools around.

I wasn’t aware, and you have provided info on this, of schools where BAME were the majority and that parents were social workers and teachers.

I was under the impression given my experience of private schooling for myself and my children was overwhelmingly white, and no social worker or teacher could afford the fees.

@katnyps

“I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?”

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I get this impression too, in parliament, the arts, Olympic sport etc.

I’m not sure of the actual numbers though, but I do feel f true, this is the main issue for me, not the fact that people are paying for the schooling. If true, I wonder what the main reasons for this is?

@SpicyChickpeas

A school near us is predominantly Asian teenagers doing full boarding and a smattering of locals as day pupils.

I used to tutor such students when I lived in HK. I would go to their tiny flats and talk with their average earning parents. These parents put every single thing they had into their DC's education. They went without and made massive sacrifices for it. To them, education is everything.

Exactly. The school I'm talking about is one of the highest performing in the country. Full of extremely well motivated teenagers who mostly move on to universities in this country too. We had a tour as we considered it as a day school for DS1. They were also delightful to talk to and proud of their high standards.

In Manchester that is not the case.
Where are you getting your statistics from Seth?
White children are still in the majority at state schools too I would think as we are a white majority country. I would imagine it’s only relevant to really compare demographics of ethnic mix in relation to other schools in that geographic area. There is no useful comparison to be made between a rural village school in Wales and a private school in Manchester and vice versa.
This thread has changed direction a bit but there is a wider point about assumptions. I can only speak on this from my personal experience and those of friends and family. Removing alternatives to the state system would have had massively detrimental effects on us.
Watch the small axe BBC drama concerning expectations for black students. It’s not just history. Something very similar nearly happened to my son.
Going further back, I would not have had the education or opportunities that allowed me to challenge his treatment and do something to change it, without the opportunity I was given. I doubt I would be given that opportunity these days.
There is a lot of simplistic thinking around the issue of schooling ( more funding!). People need to talk more and try to understand other people’s perspectives, ‘ champagne socialists’ especially so in my opinion.

@ SpaceRaiders
I just. saw your post. It’s interesting isn’t it that these conversations happen all the time in private but it’s so hard to pinpoint and name it for what it is when dealing with schools.
Good luck.

Spicey I agree but it's also home life, having money doesn't preclude you deontic death, terminal illness, drugs and alcohol addictions, violence, domestic abuse, ss involvement, etc etc.

Money for private school doesn't stop any usual human problems which will massively impact on children's learning.

All of those points are true but where does that leave the children whose parents can’t pay/problematic state schools, etc.

It is disingenuous to me to say on the surface that it is a level playing field when there are so many other factors at play. A greater honesty about this would be a start as we have state educated kids working like crazy but not achieving as the system they are in can only take them so far.

And the people who go to ‘good’ state schools do need to be aware that the filtering process benefitted them but not others. In one borough in London where I taught, the resources suffered so extremely in two different schools it was extraordinary. What also was apparent was that in the bright, well resourced (throwing books away) school that was over staffed! the children were very healthy, white, m/c but in the very poorly laid out school (bad classrooms/dark/falling apart) fewer resources, very negative vibe and attitude the children were predominantly from the local estate and black. It was startling to experience. How can that be? In one borough? I know the area well and in the past, the now affluent area was seen as the poorer part but it has gentrified around a university, new buildings, etc. Someone called it poverty porn.

Something very wrong went on, imv around 20 years ago in some of those areas.

@sethy38 there are a huge number of children in our school who have teacher parents - they all teach at the school and get vastly reduced fees!

Nursery and primary schools need massive support to deal with dc who simply cannot learn along with their classmates. Eg sen, mild to severe need early intervention and support.
Dc with sn and just dc who have emotional and behaviour issues, if they can have people to work with them frome really early on their chances will massively increase and years down the line, better for society.

But one ta and teacher can't do this and yet children who can't engage are bored, children with behaviour issues will cause disruption, children with sen who are bright but can't understand will become bored and disruptive, etc etc.

All slows down normal leaning and in some way school this is so extreme teachers say they are just crowd control.
We should be throwing everything we have at early intervention, teachers need to be taught sen, sn to spot, there needs to be a slick referral system in school.... Then an easy path to outside help where necessary.

With ironing out these issues early, will pay off later on and then for the secondary there should be schools available with more creative sides...

Interesting reading the first couple of pages, didn't realise it's been done to death before

I'm fairly meh about private education, if you can afford it & want to great, go for it

As a person who was educated in the state system and went to a top 10 university, fellow state school pupils in my halls were few & far between. Luckily the friends I made (all privately educated) were the down to earth ones!

Private education is no guarantee of success at university- the ones I remember who dropped out went to some of the best public/private schools.

I think university can be a shock when you have to work independently & don't get handed things of a plate ie nobody will sit you down and carry you through the course

Just my viewpoint and based on my experiences

DC1 is at state primary and we've been really impressed, we could probably just about afford to scrape money together to go private but it's just not something we believe in (DH also state educated)

Education inequality isn't caused by private schools, nor would it be solved by 'scrapping them'. Finland is a really bad example to use. The reason private schools are almost obsolete the huge taxes & social security.

Add on municipal tax etc and employer rates and you'll find it's a pretty huge amount of tax paid. This funds education along with many other benefits.

The reason education is poor in many state schools is the fact that they are underfunded, lots of SEN, behavioural issues, violence etc. Pushing the several 100,000 children into these already stretched classrooms is only going to make matters worse.

Giving everyone a poor education doesn't make it ''fair'' . I struggled to save for year and struggle every month to pay for my child to go to private school. We make huge sacrifices to afford this. Why? because the local school has violence and drug issues, and is well known locally for the behavioral issues in the classrooms. A girl was assaulted by another student in broad daylight outside the school in the first week of term last year - why on earth would I send my child there if I could avoid it??

@Pinkyxx I think the argument isn't that it's about giving everyone a poor education, but that without a private option and with a much more progressive taxation system (so people that currently spend their money on private fees paid it in taxes) then you would have far far more resources for state education and it would be vastly improved. This making education 'good enough' for everyone.
Personally I think that's a bit simplistic as good education establishments are not just about resources (you'd have to use some of the extra money to make some systemic changes). But there is clearly a massive problem with under investment.

For me, there is a whole other angle to this. There really isn’t much actual “choice” in state schools. You take what you are given, and if it doesn’t jibe with your values, tough.

To force children into state schools is in essence give the state control over children in a way we it’s never had before. The existence of private schools and the right to use them if you wish, demonstrates that parents have the final say for their children. They aren’t compelled to send them to a state school with state mandated values. (Appreciate this is a theoretical right for most people who cannot afford private.)

Who do children “belong to”? Families? Or the state?

@Empressofthemundane It's a conundrum right...So, day I'm a dyed in the wool creationist and I really really only want my kid to be taught a creationist curriculum. My only choice currently is to pay for that privately. Because as a society/the state we've all decided that we don't want a creationist curriculum (because otherwise if enough of us wanted it we'd vote for a party that that proposed it). Democracy is a bugger for pulling everything to the middle, including education. The state ethos/values are those most broadly acceptable to most people. And most people have no choice other than through their vote. Parents or members of society don't have the final say about much tbh, education health, laws, infrastructure, social policy, environment, taxation, economic investment...we don't have personal autonomy over any of it. That's representative democracies for you.... Personally I'm down with that as the benefits seem worth it I've never been one of those tiresome bores who only want my taxes spent on the things important to me

To force children into state schools is in essence give the state control over children in a way we it’s never had before. The existence of private schools and the right to use them if you wish, demonstrates that parents have the final say for their children. They aren’t compelled to send them to a state school with state mandated values. (Appreciate this is a theoretical right for most people who cannot afford private.)

The final sentence here is the key one. You are asserting that educational choice is an important right. You defend that right by insisting on a system where only 7% get to exercise that right

Maybe a better funded, better resourced state system would give more choice to a greater number of families.

@hettie

Yes, there is democracy, but do you want tyranny by the demos? Some of us would like a more liberal society where we cooperate when it is necessary but allow a diversity of opinions and values where possible.

@bluegovan

Some people not being able to afford something doesn’t mean it should be abolished.

The principal that children belong to families not the state, is important. You might like overriding people with unpopular opinions (creationists, etc) but you wouldn’t like it when it happens to you. Surely rights should be abstract and reciprocal.

@Frodont, have a look at Withington Girls and Manchester Grammar. Both fee paying. Both around 12k a year. Withington girls was top 5 for results in the country when my 16yr old daughter was offered a place. We opted for our equally high achieving state grammar that we’re lucky enough to be in catchment for. So cheap(er) doesn’t always mean mediocre quality and sometimes like here it can mean ridiculously high exam results; higher than many internationally recognised public schools.

[quote Empressofthemundane]@bluegovan

Some people not being able to afford something doesn’t mean it should be abolished.

The principal that children belong to families not the state, is important. You might like overriding people with unpopular opinions (creationists, etc) but you wouldn’t like it when it happens to you. Surely rights should be abstract and reciprocal.[/quote]
I don't know what you mean by abstract and reciprocal in this context.

I think if the overwhelming majority (not 'some people') have no access to a fundamental right, we have something very wrong with the way our society is organised. The right shouldn't be abolished if it's important, but we should find a way to make it accessible to the majority.

Families of course have rights to bring up their children as they want, but most people would agree that the state should put boundaries and safeguards in place, because there are, unfortunately, people who will abuse this right.

I'm not sure what you mean about me liking overriding people with unpopular opinions? I don't think there is a right to teach children things that are damaging or untrue (including creationism). But surely it would be far easier to teach these in a private school, because, as many have said, the state has less control/influence over what is taught in private schools. If the state starts teaching creationism, I think we all need to worry, not just those of us with children in state schools.

I remember reading that there’s a UN rule that the state can’t have a monopoly on education but I mentioned this once on another state v private thread and was asked for proof.
All I could find was this:

‘Freedom of education is the right for parents to have their children educated in accordance with their religious and other views, allowing groups to be able to educate children without being impeded by the nation state.
Freedom of education is a constitutional (legal) concept that has been included in the European Convention on Human Rights’

So I don’t know whether a) private schools could defend themselves using this rule and b) Brexit means the UK is no longer covered by ECHR.