When do we teach daughters to fight back?

[Jimbellselmbath]

Dd has been in trouble in school for "fighting"
She is 12 and a little skinny thing.
The other side was a boy, a school year older, taller and bigger, she said he has already turned 14. So nearer 2 years older.
He has history for attacking girls back to primary but his parents are very vocal and protective and their boy is an angel.
DD got the better of him in the "fight"
Dd said he started it and she finished it like we had always told her to do.
None of the above was disputed by either side.
DD was placed in isolation for a week although lockdown happened so she did 2 days. The boy got nothing although he was in school.
What has really riled me is the teacher was so bothered about her retaliating, that was the source of her punishment.
Having had time to think about it I am not happy.
So dd shouldn't retaliate? Should she do so when she's older?
If an older boy kicks her in the fanny on the bus, should she wait until the next day to report at school? What if he's not from the school? What about an adult? Should she sit quietly and take his abuse? At what age can a girl fight back? I want to go to his house but dd would die of shame
I have no faith in the school

Sge didn’t start this , he kicked her and she flattened him ! Good he won’t do it again will he!!
Absolutely right to have her trained , did the same with my daughter , she got surround by 6 older girls after school once because they found out she could fight ,.yes 6 sixth formers she was 13 , they attacked her and she fought each and every one of them off ( she was a 2nd Dan black belt in taekwondo) school did bugger all but they never went near her again and my daughter would always help those that got bullied in school and has never started a fight in her life because they are taught immense self discipline ! In the world we live girls should 100% be taught to protect themselves.

It's contrary that saying someone is a 'dick' or a 'twat' is mainstream MN, but fanny sounds vulgar. They are all just words. And using dick and twat as terms of derogation makes it seem that we scorn reproductive organs, which is the same argument being used to say that fanny shouldn't be used as it's vulgar. It's true though that when the correct anatomical terms are used, the right note of gravitas is introduced.

I think a person wouldn't visit MN if they were really opposed to bad language. It's use is routine on the forum.

I hate schools that blame the retaliator. Sign of crap management of bullying. DC were in a primary school like that.

I agree - escalate this. Complain to the Head and the governors. Explain that she retaliated and that the message they are giving is that boys can attack girls and get away with it, but if girls defend themselves they will be punished.

Also, privately, I'd praise her. She did well. She did right to fight back. These days people get so squeamish about fighting but it is crucial that if you are attacked your instinct to preserve yourself kicks in. DS put up with 2 years of bullying before he fought back. Never got bullied again by that kid. He could have saved two years of torment if we hadn't all been so wimpy.

I hope that wouldn't be the case. The police should enforce the law and justice should be blind. Not prosecuting someone because the newspapers would find a prosecution of interest would be an outrageous way to operate our judicial system.

And yet, no one wants trouble so I think that would be the case. Tbh, I'd say public interest would not be served by prosecuting such a case anyway. A woman who only attacks in self defence? What purpose would charging her serve? She won't reoffend unless attacked first, but locking her up and charging her would cost taxpayer money and likely ruin her life, possibly causing her to turn to crime to make a living. I would very much hope that the crown prosecution service would decide not to bring charges against a woman acting in self defence in that case, and they would rightly have their arses handed to them by the media and public opinion if they decided to.

@TopBants

I hope that wouldn't be the case. The police should enforce the law and justice should be blind. Not prosecuting someone because the newspapers would find a prosecution of interest would be an outrageous way to operate our judicial system.

And yet, no one wants trouble so I think that would be the case. Tbh, I'd say public interest would not be served by prosecuting such a case anyway. A woman who only attacks in self defence? What purpose would charging her serve? She won't reoffend unless attacked first, but locking her up and charging her would cost taxpayer money and likely ruin her life, possibly causing her to turn to crime to make a living. I would very much hope that the crown prosecution service would decide not to bring charges against a woman acting in self defence in that case, and they would rightly have their arses handed to them by the media and public opinion if they decided to.

Another example would be minors having consensual sex- a 15 year old and a 16 year old, for example. Technically illegal. Does people who do it get charged?

No. Would you like them to be?

Absolutely call the police. Schools are normally shite at dealing with bullying, especially if he has vocal parents.

I'd also follow the school complaints procedure and take it the whole way to the Governors. And she's right to defend herself - why should she stand there and take a beating!

10000% Yes she did right, he wont do it again and least it wont turn into a bullying case.
I have children and I tell them dont ever start a fight but if anyone starts with u, hit back and make sure it hurts.
It's a shame we live in a world like this but eye for an eye I say.

She won't reoffend unless attacked first

I personally dont believe that a child who has shown this level of violence, wont be showing on other occasions as well. I also wonder what led up to the attack.

That level of violence is never justified and should never be condoned. Partly for the child's safety. If she learns this is an appropriate response what happens when she comes across a man she can't get the better off. Or when the police do charge her with assault.

Some times "fighting back" should be about removing yourself from the situation and seeking redress through non physical means.

As has been said Her retaliation was totally disproportionate, so much so I’m wondering if you have the full story.

@Scotsmaw

Those using the word fanny are at least being anatomically correct, ffs he did not kick her in the vagina!!!

We don’t say to our toddlers “don’t forget to wip your fanny” do we? It’s crude, especially coming from a child.

Hang on, are you saying that a fire alarm drill lasted from 12:30-3pm while the entire school of children messed about outside and the teachers stood around chatting?

I'm not certain a tough fight-back will always guarantee future safety.

There may be an older sister who wants to take revenge. The way the fight is explained governs how family members see it. I reckon there's frequently differences of opinion as to who was the aggressor. If you show disregard for and sidestep school rules in favour of your own system of justice, you invite repercussions perpetrated by those who choose to live beyond the law and think you've joined them.

Please escalate this OP both with the school and the police, for the sake of your daughter and other girls (and indeed boys) in the school as a boy like that needs to learn the error of his ways with appropriate punishment as all he's been taught at the moment is that he can kick a 12 year old (child) in an intimate area with absolutely no consequences. When my son was at school, a boy in his class attacked a girl from behind in a secluded wood leaving her bruised, he ran off and left her sitting in mud, a few days later he attacked her again, but, forewarned she was able to retaliate and as she was a black belt in karate she, like your daughter came off victor in this confrontation. His parents were livid but unable to see the irony that she was just defending herself. He walked away from those assaults with no punishment. Subsequently he attacked many others until he tried to strangle a boy (fortunately in school in front of cctv cameras) who was also a black belt as if he wasn't this attacker was in such a rage it could have ended differently. The boy he strangled was my son who used one of his defensive moves and punched him clean in the face breaking his nose. Many kids had told the teachers they had been attacked but due to no evidence he was allowed to carry on un challenged, thank goodness for cctv and all those hundreds ££ spent on karate lessons or else the outcome may have been very different.

I think your daughter was absolutely right to defend herself . The only way to get rid of a bully is to stand up to them. I hope she is ok.

This thread is showing up Britain’s divides and different worlds well. Ffs vocabulary is not the primary issue here. I can well believe that teachers in a rough school pay as little attention to kids fighting as possible and take every opportunity to run away and not get involved. Teachers tend to come from Britain’s other side of life as a rule.

Op I come from a rough-ish northern area and had to fight a few times. It’s great that your dd can fight back. But the reason the law states minimum force is to prevent escalation.

The danger is that your dd might next time hit someone who decides he has to get back at her, and brings a gang along. Then, as you mentioned in the op I think, you go round to the parents house and kick off - do not, under any circumstances, do that btw. Then you each get your families involved. You end up with those kind of bad blood feuding situations you read about, that end with innocents suffering serious injuries or deaths, with houses set on fire. From one passing fight at school.

A 12 year old may not have learned that yet, or may not have the control. You’ll have to teach her limits. If she’s at a decent self defence club I’ll be surprised if they don’t apply some sort of sanction tbh. Do get hold of the school and establish all events so the initial aggressor can be told off by the school - but they may feel he’s already had sufficient punishment.

an intimate area with absolutely no consequence

We will never know if there was no consequence. The OP's DD didnt try school consequences. Instead

She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face.

She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face She needs anger and aggression management classes. I am not being sexist I'd suggest for a pre teen boy showing this level of violence this is obviously not her first fight she sounds like a pro cage fighter I say that as someone born in the rough land inner city.

She got the better of him as she has always been taught to fight back and not back down and been taught how to defend herself
And what happens when one day, one kid outside gets a knife out? Will she start carrying one too.

This is exactly how violence and crime escalate.

You are teaching your child (female or male) very wrong.

@CoffeeBeansGalore

Put everything in writing so you have a paper trail. Summarise the phone calls. State you are not happy that your daughter was punished for defending herself yet the boy that assaulted your daughter was given no punishment. They have failed to protect your daughter. This is a safeguarding issue, not just a bullying issue. Ask for their safeguarding policies and bullying policies. State that you will be reporting this incident to the police as this was an assault on your Dd (and do it). Cc in the local education authority whether you do this by email or letter. Your daughter needs to know that you are behind her and that she has every right to defend herself.

All of this.

I would absolutely report it to the police.

The boy has form for attacking younger girls and has now kicked your daughter in the privates. That's way too far and he needs something to stop him in his tracks before he becomes an adult with a penchant for it.
His parents clearly don't care that he hurts others or care enough about him to see it needs to stop.

I had a case of unprovoked physical assault going on with one of mine. School seemed very uninterested. I took advice from local PCSO and told the school I had done so - suddenly the school stopped it, instantly. 🤔

I think you should take it to the board of governors as well as council and OFSTED. And push hard on all of them.

Assuming he made a sustained attack on her - i.e. it didnt turn into her beating him up though good fucking on her if she did I would also make a complaint to the police. He's 14. It's both assault and probably a form of sexual assault. If he's now routinely attacking smaller girls, he needs to be dealt with now before it becomes a bigger problem (that isn't your responsibility, but you have every right to escalate this matter to the police iyswim).

Your daughter is brilliant, btw.

Your daughter is brilliant, btw.

Have you read how she retaliated?

I too would report to the police without hesitation. The little prick deserves a scare. What sort of 14 year old boy does this? He's on a path to nowhere by the sound of it.

My brother was bullied, my dad was a boxer in the army, taught him how to fight!
My dad would give the school 1 chance to sort the bully out, if they didnt sort it out, my dad would go round the house of the bully, funny enough, when my dad went round the bullies houses, the bullying stopped!

It will be The same for my child

@year5teacher

Hang on, are you saying that a fire alarm drill lasted from 12:30-3pm while the entire school of children messed about outside and the teachers stood around chatting?

Apparently so. Which is why the OP (and other parents) really need to put in a massive complaint to the HT, the governors and anyone else who will listen. That the girl went into the building alone (a building which given according to the OP had been evacuated and remained evacuated for 3 hours, so could have actually had some sort of major incident going on inside) afterwards, because she couldn't see an adult out in the yard with them and then the only adult she could find was a lunchtime supervisor and friend of the family is truly shocking. This absolutely needs to be reported. I am safeguarding deputy lead which covers in my school H&S as well as other safeguarding and this is atrocious.

As others have said, it is highly probable that the other child did receive consequences for his actions, and that the other family were not informed. That would be standard in most schools. We would answer that the situation has been dealt with. The two children would not be put in isolation/detention/solitary together (obviously) Given that the female child received a kick to her genitals and then, from her mother's words, proceeded to beat the other child up, I'm afraid there's no surprise if her punishment was more severe. I'm surprised it stopped with just a few days in isolation.