When do we teach daughters to fight back?

[Jimbellselmbath]

Dd has been in trouble in school for "fighting"
She is 12 and a little skinny thing.
The other side was a boy, a school year older, taller and bigger, she said he has already turned 14. So nearer 2 years older.
He has history for attacking girls back to primary but his parents are very vocal and protective and their boy is an angel.
DD got the better of him in the "fight"
Dd said he started it and she finished it like we had always told her to do.
None of the above was disputed by either side.
DD was placed in isolation for a week although lockdown happened so she did 2 days. The boy got nothing although he was in school.
What has really riled me is the teacher was so bothered about her retaliating, that was the source of her punishment.
Having had time to think about it I am not happy.
So dd shouldn't retaliate? Should she do so when she's older?
If an older boy kicks her in the fanny on the bus, should she wait until the next day to report at school? What if he's not from the school? What about an adult? Should she sit quietly and take his abuse? At what age can a girl fight back? I want to go to his house but dd would die of shame
I have no faith in the school

@Imiss2019

I would take school out of the equation and report him to the police for assault. I would report him every single time he laid a finger on her.

This times 100. He's above the age of criminal responsibility, report him to police.

I work in a school and have dealt with fight incidents.
Firstly- we gather statements from all involved and witnesses.
We get cctv footage also if we can
From this we ascertain who threw first punch/started it. They always get the harshest sanction.
Then we look at how the other party responded. If they have got arms up etc to just defend themselves/are trying to walk away/ are pushing the other person off etc then there wouldn’t be a sanction for that. It’s self defence.
If their reaction is windmilling punches back then they will also get a sanction- not as harsh as the instigator.

In real life if adult 1 punches adult 2 and adult 2 unleashes hell hound fighting fury then adult 2 could also end up being charged I believe. It’s a really tricky one but I always tell kids unless there is literally no escape/no way of leaving/they believe their life is in danger then there is no excuse for prolonged fighting back.

I would contact the police anynomously and ask about your options. Its actually a sexual assault in my opinion - he targeted her genitals. Over the age of 10 children can be held legally accountable for their actions. He might get a warning the first time but at least there is a record of it incase he unfort targets someone else again.

In real life if adult 1 punches adult 2 and adult 2 unleashes hell hound fighting fury then adult 2 could also end up being charged I believe.

The question, AFAIK, is whether, once the threat was over, the victim continued to attack. So if your attempted mugger was on the floor and you continued to stomp on his face, yes, you may be charged (but tbh, I doubt you would be, if only because the judge/police force would be writing the Daily Mail's story for them). And I think, in a court of law, even that course of action would be pretty easy to defend, particularly if it was a woman defending herself from a male attacker. After all- we've all seen the films. If you knock the attacker down and leg it, they may pursue you. If you incapacitate them further once they're down, your chances of escape are better.

I hate to be all "COVID police" but why aren't the kids kept in bubbles?

I’ve just read the rest of OPs comments.
OP by your own admission your daughter brought the boy to the ground and repeatedly punched him in the face and also kicked him in the genitalia. Her response goes beyond self defence. It was not proportionate.
For those saying a kick in genitals isn’t automatic sexual assault then by that line of argument OP has sexually assaulted the boy in retaliation.
The boy needs to be sanctioned for assaulting your daughter with kick to her groin.
Your daughter needs to be sanctioned for reciprocal assault on this boy. Repeatedly punching someone on the floor in the face is absolutely unacceptable. That isn’t self defence. Once her opponent was down there was no need to continue. Especially as she was in a public place with adults to run to to get help. Your daughters actions stem directly from the poor advice you’ve given her. Unfortunately I’ve worked with lots of parents who tell me they tell their kids to always hit back etc etc and I’m sad to report it never ends well for their child either in school or when they move to college.
Get your daughter into a martial art or boxing or something to teach her some self control.
I do think you need to challenge the school on the way this matter was investigated. Ask when statements were taken from DD and boy and other student witnesses etc.
If witness statements also agree boy attacked DD first then he needs a punishment. Also a 2.5hr fire drill isn’t acceptable either- so I would ask for the facts on that too to find out why that happened.

Self-defence which involves extricating yourself is what is useful. Very serious and tragic outcomes follow mass brawls where people have leapt in to defend their friends. The next stage is waiting a while to ambush the assailant later. Then you have the pattern of gang warring and escalating injuries.

The objective should be to safely avoid violence and de-escalate the aggression. In real life, as an adult, fighting back may help, but proper self-defence moves aimed will be safer and surely more reliable than the use of blunt force.

Sadly, I don't know enough about self-defence techniques, but what is safe, I think, are martial arts using set moves based on knowledge of the body - weak joints in the body (wrist joints), and balance. The aim is to stay calm because being aroused with adrenaline flowing can weaken judgement and put you in greater danger. And you wouldn't really want to cause serious injury to the face of another because you've been working yourself up to feel more aggressive and hitting them near their eyes.

I presume it's common for teachers not to be there at the start of a fight, and kids will always say they were defending themselves and didn't start the violence.

We all know what a fanny is, however is that what we teach our kids to call them. It just sounds so crude.

Wow, can only think that the teacher doesn't like your daughter and likes the boy who attacked her. To punish a girl for being attacked and let the attacker off scot free is disgraceful

Did you inform the police?

@Buccanarab

I would also be careful about reporting this to the police in light of the retaliation from your dd. In my opinion (as a mum), it was beyond reasonable force. I am not an expert of course. Your dd is unlikely to ever get picked on at school again.

I'm sorry but when it comes to being sexual assaulted, which being kicked in the genitals most certainly is, there is no beyond reasonable force retaliation.

Unfortunately OP your daughter has experienced what happens to most people who respond to bullies with force. The only thing you can do is assure her her actions were right and be safe in the knowledge she'll be able to handle herself going forward.

CPS website: "Sexual assault is when a person is coerced or physically forced to engage against their will, or when a person, male or female, touches another person sexually without their consent"

It is not unlikely that a kick to the genitals in a fight would be viewed as a sexual assault. Unless the circumstances are very unusual, it is not touching a person sexually it its touching a person violently.

@TopBants yes I agree as soon as threat is eliminated (Aka down on floor themselves ) then any further violence can not be justified as self defence. The repeated punching is troubling tbh. Sounds like red mist descended- can understand why she was raging but equally she needs to learn anger doesn’t justify repeatedly punching someone who is already down.

@Cuntitinthebin as schools have reduced numbers (to some extent in) some are bubbling year groups
Together if numbers are small. Or some are even treating all keyworker students as one bubble of there’s less than the total amount of one year group. We have 70 kids in our hub. A year group is usually 240. Management are saying all hub kids are a bubble so they can all come through same gate at same time etc. They still have separate toilets and separate break areas but if there’s a fire drill they would all go out and stand together.

Unbelievable the grief the OP is getting for saying fanny when the word 'cunt' is used liberally on MN.
If you don't like the word cunt you're told to fuck off to netmums.

Op I do think you need a photo unfortunately.

Go to the police. He's 14 years old. This is assault and she has bruising.

Assuming this actually happened.

Initially I felt strongly this should be reported but your description of your daughters retaliation I would not go to the police. Her response was absolutely disproportionate especially as she kept going when he was on the floor. He should obviously be punished too and I hope he will be but she's lucky she hasn't been excluded for that assault.

I'm not saying she was wrong to fight back but she went too far and it's very worrying you don't seem to think so.

I would pursue this, it's not ITT. The only way boys and men will learn that violence against women is unacceptable is if there are consequences to their actions. What has this boy learned from this experience? It's ok, just next time choose a weaker victim.

It's only usage which makes 'fanny' sound crude. But objecting to it raises so many interesting thoughts about language and what is acceptable. It's like names: Enid might sound like an old lady's name but Ena might be a variation on the ever-popular Ella.

MN posters are always using the f word ( literally always) and cock-lodger and cface for micky taker. These have become viewed as the height of irony - you're so educated and elegant that you can afford to be crude, just as celebrities can wear ripped jeans and look expensively elegant.

Much of our language used to be thought vulgar but is now mainstream: someone on MN recently posted the rhyming slang origins of 'berk' - Berkeley Hunt. Lots of elderly people used that without knowing.

Some people like easy to say words for private parts to use when talking to their kids. Is balls ok but fanny not?

On the other hand, if I ever did become fluent in another second language - and admire people who do, as I'm hopeless - I'd like to be kept informed by friends that 'pissing about' is not standard English, is too vague to transmit any useful impression, and more formal alternatives would have more impact being used in a serious meeting about assault.

I suppose larking about is just as vague though.

Definitely go straight to the head. If they don't take it seriously, call the police.

This is a 14 year old boy kicking a 12 year old girl in the groin. What will he be doing at 18 if no one addresses this? He will only get worse unless someone punishes him. Your daughter did a fantastic job of that, I'd be proud of her. But the adults in authority need to take it seriously and sort him out.

@LickEmbysmiling

Op I do think you need a photo unfortunately.

I'd say absolutely not. It's a legally suspect thing to photograph the genitals of a 14 year old, even if for totally innocent reasons. No one professional would be happy to look at it even if she did. I think, if you're looking for a record of it, OP, best bet is to get the GP to have a look and write it up into her notes.

@TopBants you may be charged (but tbh, I doubt you would be, if only because the judge/police force would be writing the Daily Mail's story for them)

I hope that wouldn't be the case. The police should enforce the law and justice should be blind. Not prosecuting someone because the newspapers would find a prosecution of interest would be an outrageous way to operate our judicial system.

That said, I think your DD's response was excessive OP

If she had not retaliated but gone & reported and you had taken her to GP for injury to be logged you would have had a v good case to charge that boy with actual bodily harm. That means a court case and criminal record. Far more serious that a school sanction.

And far far more effective than encouraging your child to physically fight (which she was very lucky not to have come off worse after).

Those using the word fanny are at least being anatomically correct, ffs he did not kick her in the vagina!!!

*12 year old. Basically anyone legally considered a minor.

@dressedupinyou

Her response was absolutely disproportionate especially as she kept going when he was on the floor.

I would usually agree, when opponents are fairly evenly matched but when one is disproportionately smaller or weaker and someone is trying to hurt you, you keep bloody going till you KNOW they're down.

She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face.

You completely lost any high ground here.

Whilst what happened to you DD wasn't nice, this is a really horrific attack your DD has perpetrated. Self defense is pushing someone off maybe a punch, maybe the first two-three things on that list. This is something entirely different. I think you're very lucky that the punishment wasn't worse, and I certainly wouldn't be escalating to the police. Was the boy injured? If he wasn't your daughter was very lucky indeed.

If it was my DD I'd be having strong words about the merits of fighting vs "fighting back" using school rules/ national laws.