So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

They marry men who are also career driven, rather than one that's happy to take a lower salary, less responsible job and can be a sahd if required.
Much like men have/do.

But @HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee What if you don't want that constant constant nagging pressure. Even reading the words "Nursery, summer clubs, breakfast clubs" takes me back to a time of endless anxiety and worry and being given a hard time about leaving meetings early etc. etc. It is just never-ending.

@EpicDay

And *@SueEllenMishke* academia is quite different in terms of the extent to which you have control over when you do your work. The hours may be the same or similar as the corporate world but the time at which you have to do them is not.

Erm that's not entirely true. I have very little control over my timetable and lectures take place during typical 'office hours' as do the many,many meetings I'm expected to attend. I have one dedicated research day which means I only have that one day of real flexibility but that is often filled with tutorials / again during office hours. Essentially I work typical office hours the vast majority of time and do writing and research in my 'spare' time.

It’s not a pressure @EpicDay it’s our family routine. Don’t catastrophize the normal

From my experience it’s perfectly possible for two professional people to work full time but it’s usually at the price of then only seeing their children for short periods of the day.

I think the type of job IS important. Many professional jobs do have flexibility. I am friends with an academic. Yes, there are lectures during certain hours but it's possible to swap times, or move around usually. There are protections if you are sick or your children are sick.

It's a lot more difficult to mix caring responsibilities and work if you're on a zero hours contract and you'll just get fired if you take time off, even once, if your child is sick.

I think it often becomes tricky post maternity leave. Two full time out the home workers and a baby and toddler sounds really fucking tough to me. Which is why plenty of couples realise that someone needs to at home full or part time...And then gender roles creep in even with the most enlightened of men. DH is honest to God the nearest thing to a bonafide feminist and we had an agreement, but I still have had moments of wtaf
I retrained (because my previous career was impossible with kids) so that set me back even more. But it has took me 10 years to regain my pre child status and salary. In that time DH has moved up to chief exec ....I am now racing against the age/sexism conondrum if I don't make another big leap in the next 5 years I'll be stuck (as not see as young/fresh having energy for the change). I have never seen a single woman in her 50's making the push to exec level...
Properly split maternity paternity that was fairly resourced and supported by companies and enforced by legislation would be a start. Changing societal stereotypes would be a big win too but I'm not holding my breath. My 10 yr old DD still gets the same shit about girls not being 'allowed' to play football/be good at maths' that I did 30 odd years ago ..

I was more than happy to become a SAHM as I had my first child quite late in life and had worked for many years in an area I didn't enjoy.
Kids now at school and I have gone back part-time at one fifth of my previous full time salary - no bonus, my six weeks a/l is now 20 pro rata and mo private health ins. I'm working remotely and don't miss the office politics but in six years my DH who once earned 20K more than me now earns 90K more.

That all said there isn't a day I'm not relieved to be where I am now instead of dreading every morning going into my old job. Money really isn't everything.

Money really isn't everything. Usually said by people who have enough
Money is everything when you don’t have an adequate amount

I am now racing against the age/sexism conondrum if I don't make another big leap in the next 5 years I'll be stuck (as not see as young/fresh having energy for the change). I have never seen a single woman in her 50's making the push to exec level...

My career went from a standing start at 33 to director level ten years later. In my early 50s I doubled my salary by moving to contracting on short/medium term contracts. I was hired in preference to younger women on several occasions because I was perceived to be more reliable because I didn’t have school age children.

You can’t have it all at once. But you can have it all, particularly if you choose your industry carefully.

What are good industries to pick, do you think?

I am friends with an academic. Yes, there are lectures during certain hours but it's possible to swap times, or move around usually.

It really isn't. Not if you value student feedback!

Students get pissed off if you start moving lectures. There is some flexibility but not as much as there used to be. You do get perks such as sick pay, decent amounts of annual leave etc BUT that's often reflected in the pay. We're not paid nearly as much as people think - especially given the hours we work!

@ouazazate

What are good industries to pick, do you think?

The public sector is a lot less ageist than the private sector in my experience. I worked in local government and the NHS, the contracts also included the civil service and a couple of charities.

Thanks VinylDetective. I think talking about this a lot is all anyone can do to make it easier on younger people coming up behind. I chose a job that is not kind to parents. But I did enjoy the job! I need to retrain.

@SueEllenMishke

I am friends with an academic. Yes, there are lectures during certain hours but it's possible to swap times, or move around usually.

It really isn't. Not if you value student feedback!

Students get pissed off if you start moving lectures. There is some flexibility but not as much as there used to be. You do get perks such as sick pay, decent amounts of annual leave etc BUT that's often reflected in the pay. We're not paid nearly as much as people think - especially given the hours we work!

I'm an academic, it's not at all possible to move contact with students - lectures, seminars, workshops etc are all centrally timetabled..you can negotiate a tiny bit before the timetable is set but you can't just say 'oh this week I want to teach on Tuesday'. I teach about 600 students across all my sessions. That's a lot of timetables to sort out!

It is a flexible job though, you can work what hours you want around teaching BUT this means the work life balance is absolutely awful. The UCU estimated that I think the average hours per week are 50-60 for most.academics. Its expected that you work evenings and weekends to keep up with research. My department have now asked us to start texting students at 10pm at night to 'engage' them too because apparently this is when they are looking at phones. No suggestion that maybe we don't want to work all night

I think maternal instinct is innate. I didn't think about it before having a child. I was earning slightly more. I wanted to breastfeed long term, and then I wanted to spend as much of my time watching my child grow and learn as I possibly could. Her dad, not so much. His view was that it was my role, as the mother. My view was that it wasn't necessarily "my role" but it was what I wanted to do. Yes, it had a massive impact on my career, but I've just recently managed to get back on track. I know there are plenty of mothers who would be happy to continue working and have their spouse at home looking after the kids, but I think instinct (rather than gender roles) for child rearing is much stronger in mothers than in fathers. I think it's also a reason why not many men go into teaching as it is (or at least used to be) a nurturing role which might not come naturally to many men. It's just my own opinion from observation. I'm sure I'll be shot down for stating it!

Marmite2021

I agree with you. When I accidentally fell pregnant I decided to keep the baby and just crack on with life fitting the baby in, I was in a great place career wise, working in my dream job and earning comfortably. happily my DP wanted to be involved, but I was sure i was going back to work as soon as I was fit... and then my baby was born, and everything changed, there was no way I wanted to leave him in childcare.

I think that feminism in the 90s/00s tried to encourage women to see child rearing as lesser, and actually feminism needs to acknowledge that child rearing is valuable, and plays a hugely important role in society, once we’ve got our heads around that then we can look at making the workplace fairer.

Someone earlier mentioned women in male dominated heavily unionised workplaces - I work in one such place (women account for about 6.5% of the workforce in my particular role nationally). Because of the union we are obviously paid the same but as well as that there is not a huge amount of scope for sexism in many ways (allocation of work, overtime, leave etc). However, it is a very sexist (in other ways), racist, homophobic industry although changing rapidly. We are very visible as women and I know at least some of my female colleagues feel the weight of not wanting to fuck up because of the conclusions others will draw about women doing our job. There is a sweeping assumption that we got our jobs with at least a helping hand from the old diversity check box, if not solely because of it. It is a difficult job in which to be pregnant and have young children.

What is so frustrating is that while it has many downsides in terms of antisocial hours, it is well paid, with excellent sick pay (and maternity!), career average DB pension and crucially very few barriers to entry in terms of qualifications. But while there are more women applying, there is nowhere near the amount there 'should' be. I have no doubt that this is due to both the perception and the reality of the role, but also because of confirmation bias in recruitment and various other factors.

I think that feminism in the 90s/00s tried to encourage women to see child rearing as lesser, and actually feminism needs to acknowledge that child rearing is valuable, and plays a hugely important role in society, once we’ve got our heads around that then we can look at making the workplace fairer.

Agreed.

I just can't see it happening very soon though.

@TriflePudding

Marmite2021

I agree with you. When I accidentally fell pregnant I decided to keep the baby and just crack on with life fitting the baby in, I was in a great place career wise, working in my dream job and earning comfortably. happily my DP wanted to be involved, but I was sure i was going back to work as soon as I was fit... and then my baby was born, and everything changed, there was no way I wanted to leave him in childcare.

I think that feminism in the 90s/00s tried to encourage women to see child rearing as lesser, and actually feminism needs to acknowledge that child rearing is valuable, and plays a hugely important role in society, once we’ve got our heads around that then we can look at making the workplace fairer.

Your last paragraph is what really stands out to me. If you want to condition or incentivise men to do more childcare, you don’t devalue it, diminish its social and economic worth and say it’s a waste of people’s talents and time. Why would anyone become a SAHD if being a SAHM is viewed as a debasement and waste of ones professional potential?

Places like Sweden show that when you place a premium on quality preschool settings (1/2 of all workers there have an MA), more men will naturally flock to the profession.

When me and DH got together I earnt more and did so for the first 5 years of our relationship. But my earnings are limited as I’m NHS. I can earn more but I’d have to give up my patient contact and go into management which is not what I want to do and not what I came into nursing for. So by the time we got around to kids he was earning more. I went part time after kids because it was also easier for me, I was fortunate I could compress my hours and do longer days over fewer working days. Currently I’m classed as part time but only work 3 hours less than my full time husband. My full time wage is significantly less than him but my job is physically and emotionally harder. He takes on more work around the house though. And all finances are shared as in the early days I was paying for holidays and clothes for him to keep up with my lifestyle.

One of the problems is that most women want children and many men don't. Women feel more responsible for the children.
Another problem is many women like to be in charge at home, so ironically home becomes the woman's responsibility. Stop boasting bout wearing the trousers - it comes back to bite you.
A further problem is many women actually enjoy their maternity leave and the idea of working part-time becomes an attractive choice. 5, 10,15 years laters their professional careers have really suffered.
A huge problem is many women feel guilty about going out to work if they have children, or prioritising work over their children. Few men feel that guilt.

Nope to all your post @Uhhuhoyaye. No mum guilt whatsoever
Your post it’s straight from the modern wimmin only have themselves to blame

@Uhhuhoyaye

One of the problems is that most women want children and many men don't. Women feel more responsible for the children. Another problem is many women like to be in charge at home, so ironically home becomes the woman's responsibility. Stop boasting bout wearing the trousers - it comes back to bite you. A further problem is many women actually enjoy their maternity leave and the idea of working part-time becomes an attractive choice. 5, 10,15 years laters their professional careers have really suffered. A huge problem is many women feel guilty about going out to work if they have children, or prioritising work over their children. Few men feel that guilt.

No. No to all of this.

@VinylDetective

I am now racing against the age/sexism conondrum if I don't make another big leap in the next 5 years I'll be stuck (as not see as young/fresh having energy for the change). I have never seen a single woman in her 50's making the push to exec level...

My career went from a standing start at 33 to director level ten years later. In my early 50s I doubled my salary by moving to contracting on short/medium term contracts. I was hired in preference to younger women on several occasions because I was perceived to be more reliable because I didn’t have school age children.

You can’t have it all at once. But you can have it all, particularly if you choose your industry carefully.

My local authority has just appointed a new chief executive. Her first job in a chief executive role. She is late 40s/early 50s.