So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

I do think there is a biological link in mammals (many of them, not just humans) between mother and baby. This is why, for example, it's considered a huge problem separating pups from their mothers too early and is known to cause emotional / behavioural problems. However, I think that lessens as the babies get older.

There is also a problem sharing leave if you're breastfeeding (although I know one couple where they shared leave, and in the latter 6 months, which the Dad did, he brought the baby to the mother's workplace to feed - which was amazing - relies on having an accommodating workplace though).

I would have happily left my babies with their father in a way I really wasn't happy to leave them in nurseries with strangers. Particularly the nurseries we could afford. But it wasn't an option for us as shared parental leave wasn't a thing for our first.

Oh please, feeding the ducks does not compare to a day of high pressure sales presentations to clients or a day as a surgeon.

Are you a stay at home mother @GodOfPhwoar? How can anyone think this is what being a SAHP is like. I remember DS2 being so ill that it took me two hours to feed him after which he spray puked it all onto the ceiling and then it took me two hours to wipe off. Meanwhile DH, who gave me about £50 pw for the three of us, was spending that every lunchtime on long leisurely pub 'meetings' with clients.
It's a myth that all high-salaried men work harder than anyone else or that SAHP spend their days drinking lattes and feeding ducks. As a SAHM, I worked 24/7 - often with less than 3 hours per night. I remember being overjoyed that I needed root canal treatment because it meant i could legitimately sit down for two hours and not have any demands made on me. I have never ever worked as hard in any job as I did as a SAHP, and i have run projects for multinationals, worked 16 hour days for an international firm, flying all over the place and doing presentations with jet lag. All a walk in the park feeding ducks compared with parenting in the early years.

I like how feeding the ducks - a discrete 30 minute activity - is compared to a day of high pressure sales or a day as a surgeon.

Let’s compare a day of looking after a newborn and a toddler to a leisurely lunch hour with some work colleagues.

See what I did there?

🙄

@ThornAmongstRoses

It killed me going back to work when they were 9-12 months of age and being apart from them at such a young age - never mind doing it when they were younger.

And this is the problem

A mother not wanting to be away from her young infant is a problem?

Yes don't you know by the majority of the replies on here you're obviously not ambitious or successful enough if you're not chasing your career and sticking your child in day care. And you have no value as a woman if you stay home

And the poster who said their sister had a child with SEN , that is ONE parent you know with a child with SEN. It's friggin exhausting and extremely stressful. Never mind finding childcare that would accommodate your childs extra needs so you can be a woman that you seem to think is successful.

Here's an idea, what about what's doing best for your family. Every family is different.

As per my original post (which you read of course, right?) I mentioned duck feeding because it's what my sister always seemed to be doing when she called me in the day for a chat (and I barely had a minute spare).

It was another poster that argued that it was hardly a leisure activity, which is why I then said it's hardly the same as a stressful job.

I still maintain that parenting is easier than working for some and harder for others. For me, lack of sleep and frustration is much less of an issue than the anxiety I used to face doing presentations etc which at one point had me taking beta blockers for every meeting.

@Circumlocutious

I like how feeding the ducks - a discrete 30 minute activity - is compared to a day of high pressure sales or a day as a surgeon.

Let’s compare a day of looking after a newborn and a toddler to a leisurely lunch hour with some work colleagues.

See what I did there?

🙄

Except that leisurely lunch hours are a thing of the past in most workplaces now.

I thought this I had it all sorted when my kids were babies. I was back to work, childcare pretty much sorted. It wasn’t about getting back in after having babies. I’ve actually found it trickier to juggle everything as they’ve got older. School issues, worrying about missing their childhood, DH earning a lot more and both of us working unpredictable freelance hours meant it made more sense to me in the end to stop working. They’re only young once, I want to know them well and I don’t want to not bake their birthday cakes, if that makes any sense. It felt like me getting home at 7 at the earliest 4/5 nights a week meant I was asking the kids to hold on their worries to tell me/DH at the weekend, which just didn’t seem very fair/satisfactory. Personally I just felt like the job of mumming I wanted to do could not be adequately outsourced. Annoying but true (for me).

I used to go to work for a rest - we both did even my teacher husband as when we had a brand new baby, a one year old and a 3 year old - that was the hardest work ever when yo had all 3 alone particularly as none slept through the night, all were in nappies at night and the baby was feeding from me every 2 hours or so all night. That sitting on the tube with a book for 25 minutes which you can do from out here was heaven on earth - no one pulling at you or kicking you or being sick on you. Then in work treated like a lawyer God - well not always but more so than a toddler treats a parent.

My husband and I went to university together and graduated at the same time. I only had 12 weeks off with each child and went straightback to work but he must earn 5 or 6 times what I do and with a fuck-off bonus at the end of the year. The difference is he had the confidence and aggresive frame of mind to take risks and was prepared to exloited opportunties that , at the time , I thought were speculative. He takes a more measured view of things nowadays and pretty much works 9-5 but he gets paid the going rate for a Company Director and Senior Manager in his industry. Not that I'm complaining or feel the lesser being for it. It's just illustrative of how a lot of men focus and work, IMHO.

I remember being overjoyed that I needed root canal treatment because it meant i could legitimately sit down for two hours and not have any demands made on me

I remember feeling this way when I had to go into hospital for a minor procedure. The nurse was apologising it was taking so long and I said "no, no, I'm on my own with the kids normally and I can't even go to the loo on my own so sitting here in the waiting area alone is really rather lovely" - she said "i know exactly what you mean, I won't worry about you then!". I had a little nap to make up for the fact that I'd gone at least 6 years being woken up at least once a night.

It's my observation that for those parents I know that share parental leave there is usually more appreciation for both roles (working and childcare) and the relationships tend to be stronger - and less chance that there's a war over who does the most because both of them do everything and so appreciate the pluses and minuses of both.

DH at first was upset he couldn't take more leave (he didn't have the option - it was before shared parental leave) but he has sometimes had an attitude of 'you're swanning around feeding the ducks' when I'm demonstrably not. However, what is interesting is that while I take any opportunity to have a day doing something closer to his job, he is extremely reluctant to be sole carer even for a day. If he really thought it was so relaxing and fun why doesn't he want to do that more?

And in terms of employment, since I was SAHM and now trying to be part-time self employed, there's a huge assumption that his job comes first because it pays the bills. We were both applying for jobs recently with extensive, time-consuming applications and he basically told me that he wouldn't look after the kids to give me time because his job application (because it would pay more) was a priority. We had words, and he relented somewhat but I still didn't get the space free that he did to do my application.

I think that the argument could be made that actually facilitating me getting back to something closer to full-time work would actually do more for the family finances long term now. Any additional that he makes is eaten up with higher taxes, whereas I've got a LOOONG way to go for that. I don't know, maybe he's right - I think it's certainly going to be easier for him to get a higher paying job with the confidence and experience he has.

And of course having been a SAHM, I'm picking up all the homeschooling now in lockdown (and earlier in the year too - also during isolations) so a lot of the work I was doing has had to be wound down. If I prioritise my work or career it directly disadvantages my children in the short term. It's difficult to do that.

Of course if DH's employer was in any way reasonable or flexible about the load they're putting on him, or recognised he actually has children who are now at home being schooled (while he WFH), then that would probably help. But they're rubbish (hence the applying for other jobs), and we need to pay the mortgage so something has to give- and it's my work / my career.

@GodOfPhwoar

As per my original post (which you read of course, right?) I mentioned duck feeding because it's what my sister always seemed to be doing when she called me in the day for a chat (and I barely had a minute spare).

It was another poster that argued that it was hardly a leisure activity, which is why I then said it's hardly the same as a stressful job.

I still maintain that parenting is easier than working for some and harder for others. For me, lack of sleep and frustration is much less of an issue than the anxiety I used to face doing presentations etc which at one point had me taking beta blockers for every meeting.

It is actually quite a stressful job being solely responsible for babies and toddlers because if you fuck up (easily done on no sleep, you turn away to check your phone and they’ve drowned in the duck pond or the bath, swallowed a bit of Lego, got tangled in a blind) someone will actually die. Constant vigilance amidst semi-constant boredom. I don’t think minimising what parents do helps anyone.

It is actually quite a stressful job being solely responsible for babies and toddlers because if you fuck up (easily done on no sleep, you turn away to check your phone and they’ve drowned in the duck pond or the bath, swallowed a bit of Lego, got tangled in a blind) someone will actually die. Constant vigilance amidst semi-constant boredom.

This is a REALLY good way of describing it. That's it exactly.

Haven't read the full thread, but my experience is that nobody ever tells you that it just isn't possible to have two full-time working parents in responsible jobs and be a happy family. It's possible for the children to be happy (good childcare, domestic support etc.) but the toll it takes on the parents is immense. Once you realise that, and you don't want to give up your friends/never go out/be constantly exhausted/stressed beyond measure every time a child is ill and doesn't want to or can't go to nursery or school, something has to give. For us, I was so much happier going to work and my DH was generally better at looking after the children when they were small so he stepped back in his role and worked PT while I carried on full-time. But mostly, whether through conditioning or not, women prefer to be the ones to go PT. The point is, one of you has to. Of course, exactly what happens to most women has now happened to my DH and he is not sure at all what on earth he's going to do for the rest of his working life now that the children don't need him any more. And financially he would be up shit creek legally if I left him (or he wanted to leave me), although we have always had an agreement that I would honour that he would have half my pension and half the house because, unlike many men in this situation, I have always valued what he has done as much as, if not more, than the money I have earned. But he would be hard pressed to convince a judge that that's what he's entitled to, because domestic contributions are still extraordinarily under-valued. Really what's needed is more honest and open conversations about what raising a family (happily) involves.

I’m sure there are circumstances where being a SAHP is very stressful.
But all of these comments about people swanning around having nice long lunches? Yes that happens in certain roles but jeez talk about sweeping generalisations.

I had gardening leave between roles. And let me tell you, it was phenomenal. No early starts. Get kids up and to school. Mooch across to the gym for a nice coffee/ workout/ swim. Depending on what needed doing in the house - head back and get stuff done/ supper prepped (so 2-3 of chores perhaps). Pick up children. Do uniform/ sports kits/ etc. Supper. Clear up. Relax.

Repeat. Replace the gym with shopping occasionally. For those months I realised why so many people legitimately enjoyed being a SAHP.

Of course there is bickering, illness, school issues (but a wohm parent still has to deal with those).

If I compare the above life to my life as a WOHM parent? Worlds apart. Alarm set for 6am. Get ready for work / check emails. Get kids up at 6.45. Drop them to breakfast club. Hope traffic is ok. Drive straight to station. In winter, stand on a freezing platform and hope your train isn’t cancelled and (pre covid) you’ll get a seat.
Get to work. Back to back meetings/ presentations/ calls. Perhaps manage to get a few breaks in the day. Keep one eye on the clock and ensure you’re out to get the train that gets you back in time to relieve the nanny. Get home. Catch up with the children. Bedtime.

Repeat. And try desperately to squeeze a gym session in but you don’t because you already feel guilty about not seeing your children and so you cannot justify heading for a swim/ sauna.

Yes I suppose if you catastrophize every outing,every kerb as a trip hazard you’ll be unnecessarily hypervigilant all the time. Imagining catastrophe at every event is unhealthy and can’t be used as an excuse not to work
I can’t get a job I’m too busy doing an environmental risk assessment of the park, or closely hovering whilst the kids eat in case I have to perform emergency tracheostomy

Yes that happens in certain roles but jeez talk about sweeping generalisations

Its the sweeping generalisations that lead to most of the hoo ha on this subject

Great post @EpicDay

When I'm talking about SAHP I'm talking about the early years when it's that or nursery. Not school aged children.

I only know a very small minority of SAHP with school aged kids who can actually afford to really be SAHP (usually married to consultants or lawyers)

Most people I know have one parent who's desperately trying to get back into work that fits with school drop offs / pick ups and can deal with illnesses etc. Some manage to find part-time work, others try the self-employed route but most end up lightyears away from where they'd probably be if they hadn't had kids.

And yes, really what EpicDay said. I wish someone had read me EpicDay's post when we were deciding whether or not to have kids. There does just seem to be a lack of honesty about these things. Just like I assumed that because it said in company policy my job would be there at the end of maternity leave, that would really be true.

@sassbott

I’m sure there are circumstances where being a SAHP is very stressful. But all of these comments about people swanning around having nice long lunches? Yes that happens in certain roles but jeez talk about sweeping generalisations.

I had gardening leave between roles. And let me tell you, it was phenomenal. No early starts. Get kids up and to school. Mooch across to the gym for a nice coffee/ workout/ swim. Depending on what needed doing in the house - head back and get stuff done/ supper prepped (so 2-3 of chores perhaps). Pick up children. Do uniform/ sports kits/ etc. Supper. Clear up. Relax.

Repeat. Replace the gym with shopping occasionally. For those months I realised why so many people legitimately enjoyed being a SAHP.

Of course there is bickering, illness, school issues (but a wohm parent still has to deal with those).

If I compare the above life to my life as a WOHM parent? Worlds apart. Alarm set for 6am. Get ready for work / check emails. Get kids up at 6.45. Drop them to breakfast club. Hope traffic is ok. Drive straight to station. In winter, stand on a freezing platform and hope your train isn’t cancelled and (pre covid) you’ll get a seat.
Get to work. Back to back meetings/ presentations/ calls. Perhaps manage to get a few breaks in the day. Keep one eye on the clock and ensure you’re out to get the train that gets you back in time to relieve the nanny. Get home. Catch up with the children. Bedtime.

Repeat. And try desperately to squeeze a gym session in but you don’t because you already feel guilty about not seeing your children and so you cannot justify heading for a swim/ sauna.

This is with children school age. Not babies and pre schoolers.

it just isn't possible to have two full-time working parents in responsible jobs and be a happy family
⬆️ That’s simply not true. We both work FT and because of COVID I’m in more than ever. It works because we make it work. Because career is important to both of us

Imagining catastrophe at every event is unhealthy and can’t be used as an excuse not to work

Did you know that a toddler died during lockdown by crawling into a hot tub while their Mum was trying to work? We don't allow nursery workers to have another job on the side while looking after kids, or nannies - why do you think that is?

Those with preschoolers should have been prioritised for furlough, but of course most of the people making the decisions have never had full-time responsibility for a toddler so don't have a clue.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee Sorry I could have been more nuanced (I already felt like I'd gone on too long). If we had both wanted, at the time we made the decision, a career more than we wanted, for example, the energy to have friends round for Sunday lunch or to go to the cinema or out for dinner in the week, or to host a children's party at home rather than outsourcing etc. etc. than yes it would have been possible. And I was very careful to say that it needn't impact on the children if you have good childcare.But I think it genuinely would have been impossible for us also to have the kind of happiness we personally wanted for us as well as the children. More than just coping with day to day life. We both had ludicrously intense jobs though (him a laywer and me a very very senior civil servant). But even with slightly less intense jobs I think my point still stands, that the world of corporate work is not designed for two full-time working parents. And I personally think that's ok, I just wish that we all knew that before we started.

Haven't read the full thread, but my experience is that nobody ever tells you that it just isn't possible to have two full-time working parents in responsible jobs and be a happy family.

And I can tell you that In my experience it absolutely is possible.
I'm a university academic and DH is a senior manager at another university. We have a DS (6) and both work full time and were really happy.

Yeah it's full on at times ( especially now) but we make it work and it works well.
Teamwork is key.

I think having one child is very different from having 2. We coped fine with one, and maybe again that's part of the discussion that we should be having when making these kinds of decisions.

The world of work is not an alien construct, you fit it in alongside family
Nursery
Summer clubs
Breakfast & after school with pick up and drop off
It’s really not always the insurmountable problem it’s presented as on mn

And @SueEllenMishke academia is quite different in terms of the extent to which you have control over when you do your work. The hours may be the same or similar as the corporate world but the time at which you have to do them is not.