On our way to Biden's Inauguration (Trump #119)

[Roussette]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4128420-Capitol-Hill-and-the-next-2-weeks-Trump-118?watched=1&msgid=103459695#103459695

Here we are on our fast moving theads

Can anyone remind me of the twitter a/c that was following up identifying lots of the mob and someone mentioned it on these threads?

@TheABC

The only consolation is that if we - outsiders on the internet - can see the potential for violence on the 20th - so can the Secret Service and FBI. Whoever is running the show can legitimately argue for more resources, compared to normal years.

I think there needs to be public consequences for Trump, otherwise the alt-right (and future leaders) will see rebellion as a risk-free option. The Republicans are desperate for it to blow over, hence the appeasement letter about "bringing America together" that appeared on CNN/independent. After feeding the tiger for 4 years, there's always the risk it will eat you.

I so hope you are right in your first point. Unfortunately, it seems clear the attempted coup on Wednesday met so little resistance because it had support on the inside right up to senior leadership level, not least because Trump has inserted his cronies and supporters into so many key posts. From what I can see, the only reason the coup failed was because good people had the courage to actively ignore the chain of command and do the right thing. The question now is, on the lead up to the inauguration, who has learnt the most from this?

Thanks for that podcast, @BlueCatRedCat. Remarkable women indeed, and so eloquent.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/calls-grow-ban-dangerous-criminal-donald-trump-visiting-scotland-3090449

Thank you CalmConfident. Mouth went dry reading that. Easy to forget the international ramifications had this succeeded. From the article:

"Thank God it didn't work, because I can't imagine how hard it would be to sanction the US financial system," the official said. By sanctions, he means the imposition of the diplomatic, military, and trade blockages that democratic nations usually reserve for dictatorships.

The USA nearly became a shit hole country.

I have to agree with @mathanxiety’s assessment of US military personnel in generic terms. DH is ex-RAF and through his career had a lot of dealings with USAF personnel, particularly as where we live there are two large USAF bases within 20 miles of our home (Michelle Obama being allegedly spotted at the local petrol station a number of years ago really set the local Facebook page alight!)

I'd hope (although given the depressingly consistent levels of incompetence from all levels of UK governance over the years, I would not be surprised to find the answer is a "Do what ?") that there are ongoing processes in place to keep an eye on all UK military personnel that have regular exposure to foreign militaries on a regular basis. Especially the Americans.

(Not that this is a new thought. I met a USAF technician 25 years back when he lived next door to a friend in Bicester and wondered how anyone could work with them. Racist did not even begin to cover it.)

@terrywynne

Thank you for the continuing thoughts everyone!

Off the back of this thread I did just have a conversation with a friend who works in the tech industry (not social media company but did a compsci type degree) about the issue of software engineers working on abstract problems that have major real world consequences, and the fact that unlike medics they don't have ethics/philosophy of tech as part of their studies or a Hippocratic oath. (sorry I can't remember which poster had a long post about this!)

Their initial take was that they see a software engineer as more like the maker of medical equipment rather than a doctor. Their algorithms and platforms are tools that other people use. So the person who makes a scalpel doesn't decide how the doctor uses it.

I did point out that the people at the top of tech companies who do make decisions on what is done with data, who gets excluded from platforms etc often start as software engineers so they should maybe do the ethics early. Which they did take on board (yay!) but questioned how you would practically deliver the course ie: as part of which degrees, when there are more routes into the tech industry. You can do four year under grad degrees or masters degrees. Maths, Compsci, physics, electrical engineering etc.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting take on how an 'in a bubble thinking in terms of abstract problem solving' software engineers thinks about it. (And maybe I made them think more about it than they had before).

Not read the whole thread yet, so this may have been mentioned, but you can challenge the medical equipment comparison. At the beginning of the pandemic there were PPE issues becuase it is all designed for the average person, ie a man. So, the makers of medical equipment do have to check their awareness of the wider world. Also, algorithms matter, as seen by the facial recognition software that sees all asian faces as the same.

What's wrong with the Kamala Harris Vogue pic? I think she looks great, relaxed, formally dressed with a little nod to casual wear (the shoes) pretty much embodies what I'd like to see as an image of the VP.

CNN reporting from west wing insiders, that Pence has not ruled out the 25th Amendment, and that he and Trump have not spoken since the attack.

Ignore my last post, I've found him.

@Soopermum1

What's wrong with the Kamala Harris Vogue pic? I think she looks great, relaxed, formally dressed with a little nod to casual wear (the shoes) pretty much embodies what I'd like to see as an image of the VP.

WTF are we discussing what she's wearing. Can anyone go back to January 2017 and find posts discussing what Mike Pence wore for Newsweek.

Or am I just not a real feminist

Agreed, theproudgeek.

I grew up in the days when nuclear weapons seemed the biggest threat, and it was a very common discussion whether – and how much – responsibility rested on scientists and engineers for deliberately developing develop these tools.

The politicians, indeed anyone who could get their hands on them, only had these tools because scientists and engineers had worked very hard to create them.

(It used to be fashionable to blame only the scientists and engineers. I never subscribed to that: there's plenty of responsibility to be shared around...)

I agree with @mathanxiety on the military aspect but there are also a lot of military folks who completely reject Trump. And more generally, the level of support for right-wing policies varies a lot by region, service, and enlisted vs officers. I personally know a lot of former and active service members who vote Democrat, support BLM etc. I just think it's important not to paint the military community as a whole as inherently right wing or pro Trump.

The other big factor is you have a lot of men in the US who dream of being marines or special forces or CIA officers, but don't make the grade. They end up working as security guards or bouncers, with a lot of resentment. They're particularly vulnerable to joining these kind of role-play militias. I saw a lot of these guys when I lived in DC, I always avoided them.

@mathanxiety

I would hazard a guess that the next flashpoint will be the changing of the names of all those military installations and bases currently bearing the names of Confederate leaders. Fort Bragg, etc.

This is a good example of different military perspectives -- many many people in the military support renaming the bases, because it's ludicrous to have them named after rebels and traitors and segregationists.

It's these different perspectives we need to make use of. Trumpists aren't going to change their minds because of people like us but they might listen to a 4 star general.

I think the immediate flashpoint is going to be resistance to new covid related restrictions that Biden will no doubt bring in.

@dreamingbohemian

I can believe that Trump has lost a lot of support from the military. He hasn't exactly endeared himself to them having spoken of them as 'losers' and maligned a war hero. He was also a draft dodger himself.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-delighted-supporters-stormed-capitol-says-republican-senator-ben-sasse_uk_5ff9acf5c5b6c77d85e7188c

He really is inhuman isn't he...

Donald Trump was 'delighted' when riotors stormed the capital and was surprised others didn’t share his perspective, Republican senator Ben Sasse said on Friday.

Sasse told conservative radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt that he learned of the president’s upbeat attitude when he talked to White House aides. Five people died during the attack, including Capitol police officer Brian Sicknick.

As the attack Wednesday was “unfolding on television, Donald Trump was walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was as... rioters [pushed] against Capitol police, trying to get into the building,” Sasse said. “That was happening. He was delighted.”

theproudgeek and PerkingFaintly I think their point was that software engineers is solving a coding problem because they have been told to make 'x', they are neither the person using it or the one deciding on the top level design of the product/it's terms and coditions/data collection etc. They therefore don't seem themselves as equivalent to a GP for instance who is making individual decisions on treatment etc for a patient.

Of course there are questions about whether people in big companies should raise internal concerns about what they are being asked to do, and the issue of what happens when you are promotes to the point where you are making higher level decisions about products.

(This is all in the context of big companies of course, there is then the whole issue of individuals coming up with algorithms/platforms etc and putting them out as open source which some people strongly should be done but does mean they can be used and adapted with less control. I think. Tech is not really my personal strong point!)

It's not just about clothes, it's about the whole picture.

Soopermum1 I think the fact that it looks casual might be an issue for some who want to see the more conventional trappings of power to be writ large. But the other part of the debate, as far as I can tell, is to do with Vogue itself and how it chooses to represent black women. In this case, the lighting and staging makes the shot flat and slightly washed-out.

Another blow for Trump though since he was whining about Melania's failure to grace the cover.

@DGRossetti it is the front cover of Vogue, so what she's wearing and how she's presenting visually has relevance. I would say the same if Biden were on the front cover.

@lionheart I don't know much about the technical details of lighting, and I still think the pic looks great, but interesting point about colour, I'll have a read of the debates

[quote Sleipnirthewonderhorse]Batshit
nyegop.org/2021/01/08/a-letter-from-the-chairman/?v=7516fd43adaa[/quote]
That is off the scale batshit! And then you get to the comments underneath ...

I agree about not tarring all military (US or otherwise) with the same brush. As I mentioned we live locally to 2 USAF bases and there are a number of children in DDs school from the bases whose parents are perfectly nice “normal” people! (an awful lot of US parents like to send their children to UK schools as they feel it gives them an advantage when returning to the US school system).

There’s something to be said about demographics of US military recruitment - there is, rightly or wrongly, a targeting of less affluent areas of the country with the temptation of using the military to get out of their surroundings. There’s obviously a correlation in education levels and how affluent an area is so by its very nature the military will recruit an awful lot of people with lower than average education attainment.

It’s mentioned in the podcast I linked to about conspiracy theories - there is a correlation between lower educational attainment and believing in conspiracy theories. It’s not an accurate predictor, and they do point out that the majority of vaccine conspiracy theorists (with particular reference to the MMR scare) are middle class.
But whilst education plays a role in preventing belief in conspiracy theories, it is incredibly difficult to “educate” someone after they’ve already expressed support for CT - education first, ie teaching critical thinking at a young age, is the only thing proven to work.

However they portrayed Harris on the Vogue cover it would have been found 'problematic'. This is just the way that people signal their progressive credentials now.

Has Kellyanne suddenly found an "alternative" conscience? (And a big pot of whitewash)

[quote Mittens030869]@dreamingbohemian

I can believe that Trump has lost a lot of support from the military. He hasn't exactly endeared himself to them having spoken of them as 'losers' and maligned a war hero. He was also a draft dodger himself.

[/quote]
Absolutely. He was incredibly disrespectful to the military in so many ways, it was highly unusual for a US president.