Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

Except its not a group or a space 'for' trans people is it? Its a group for women, maybe of whom one or two happen to identify as trans. The vast majority of women in this group will have been been and identify as women, and are suffering with an exclusively women's issue.

Transmen can experience vaginismus and other gynaecological issues, so I think it's more than fair enough to have a non-gendered support group. But I also think there shouldn't be this condescending quiz in the beginning, and more a "take it as it comes" attitudes e.g. blocking / reporting people if they intentionally use the wrong pronouns as an example.

Then if they choose not to have the reassignment surgery, they clearly are not that serious about wanting to be a man, and they are not trans men. It's really quite simple. If you felt you were born in the wrong body, you would do anything to change it. ANYTHING!

That's quite a privileged attitude, in my book. What about trans individuals in countries where getting surgeries are horribly expensive? Or it's illegal to be trans? Or they live in a family / community of actively transphobic individuals?

why do you have to address anyone?
very few posts on MN start "Hello Everyone"
And if they start with a creepy "hello Ladeez" I'd stop reading anyway

When are you going to acknowledge what posters have been saying throughout this thread?

The op could start a group and ask for evidence of the condition before people join if she wants. Clearly the answer is to not do anything apart from complain on here and stir up some more anti trans feeling though.

The dramatics on this thread are ridiculous, the op isn't being denied anything, its a Facebook group, which anyone is free to set up, not an NHS service.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

That is EXACTLY whatyouand the mods of that group are suggesting/doing. Can'tyousee the hypocrisy there? That if an actual woman doesn't answer a political question properly, she can be excluded from a health group? You can't see your own hypocrisy, can you?

The op wishes to join a group that is already set up to be inclusive of trans people. She doesn't feel comfortable using language that is trans inclusive. Why should the solution be to change the, already established, group, and not for the op to find a more suitable group.

Honestly, people on this site complain all the time about transgender people eroding their rights and invading their spaces, then a thread like this comes along and the answer is is to erode the rights and space of trans people.

And I'm the hypocrite?

Either you want established groups to change because someone is uncomfortable, or you don't.

We don't know the group is trans inclusive. Yes, it looks like it is, but we are assuming that.

Vaginismus ONLY affects women. So by saying a trans man should be in the group, and a woman not feel safe and she should just.....find another group (which by the way, she won't know of it is women-exclusive (ie men inclusive) or not until she goes to join will she) as if there are so many, IS eroding women's spaces by deliberately excluding women. So, yes, you are.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

When are you going to acknowledge what posters have been saying throughout this thread?

The op could start a group and ask for evidence of the condition before people join if she wants. Clearly the answer is to not do anything apart from complain on here and stir up some more anti trans feeling though.

The dramatics on this thread are ridiculous, the op isn't being denied anything, its a Facebook group, which anyone is free to set up, not an NHS service.

The op is looking for support, about a condition that only affects natal women, but you think in order to accommodate an absolute minuscule percentage of people who don't want to be called women, the op now has to try and start her own group, she has to go and try to find people with the same condition, (which presumably she doesn't know because that's why she is looking for a support group), then she has to sort all the practical issues that are involved with starting a group (of which you have no idea if she has the time of capabilities to do) and on top of that she then has to face the threats and intimidation of anyone who deems her group transphobic for saying woman (which as we well know will happen very quickly). Just sit and think about that for a minute.

@thirdfiddle

It's the unwillingness to acknowledge they're an exception. Most walking groups include wheelchair users but it is not expected that every mention of walking also mentions rolling, and if someone wants a wheelchair accessible route they mention that specifically when they ask. We don't demand that biology lessons teach that the human species is mostly bipedal but sometimes 4-wheeled.

All the group need to do to be inclusive is say females only - trans men welcome. And if someone has an issue where trans status is relevant they mention it in their post.

If there are other less weird groups I'd go for that ; if not give it a go. It could just be one moderator with a bee in their bonnet, or that some trans identifying members have been given grief in the past and they're trying to protect them. People en mass are not very good at jumping through pointless hoops, I wouldn't address a group as "ladies" generally anyway. It may be perfectly normal inside.

Now this is a very good example. If people do not 'get' the correlation then it is a matter of being very deliberately and willfully ignorant and making that active choice to be so.

The 50% of the population that are still oppressed and vulnerable largely because of their biology? Or a minority of people who have a psychological gender disorder whose vulnerability is entirely protected in law?

Womens rights are protected by law also, it doesn't mean it happens in real life. Trans people are massively discriminated against as well.

We don't know the group is trans inclusive. Yes, it looks like it is, but we are assuming that.

Vaginismus ONLY affects women. So by saying a trans man should be in the group, and a woman not feel safe and she should just.....find another group (which by the way, she won'tknowof it is women-exclusive (ie men inclusive) or not until she goes to join will she) as if there are so many, IS eroding women's spaces by deliberately excluding women. So, yes, you are.

Why would a woman not feel safe with a trans man talking about their vagina?

This group is a trans inclusive space (judging by the question asked). Why should a trans inclusive space set up by someone who obviously wants it that way have to change? This isn't a case of wanting to erode a womans space, its a case of wanting trans inclusive spaces eroded. So, no, I'm certainly not the one being the hypocrite here.

Assuming there are actually trans men in that group, and let's face it it's statistically unlikely, a better way to approach it would be something like:

Welcome, in the spirit of inclusivity we ask our members use preferred pronouns when speaking to individuals. We realise this is an issue affecting women but ask that you be considerate of others' feelings given the sensitivity of the topic. We realise at times inclusive language is constructive given the nature of this group but would appreciate....

No, I can't even make it make sense without erasing women.

So yeah, erasing women seems to be the solution doesn't it.

Great. Very inclusive.

@purpleboy Well said, unfortunately they won't spend any time thinking about it because these people refuse to actually think. They ideologically react instantly in order to wear down others. They don't allow themselves to stop and think. And there is a reason why they won't allow themselves to stop and think.

Well said, unfortunately they won't spend any time thinking about it because these people refuse to actually think.

Or alternatively, they have a different perspective to you.

The op is looking for support, about a condition that only affects natal women, but you think in order to accommodate an absolute minuscule percentage of people who don't want to be called women, the op now has to try and start her own group, she has to go and try to find people with the same condition, (which presumably she doesn't know because that's why she is looking for a support group), then she has to sort all the practical issues that are involved with starting a group (of which you have no idea if she has the time of capabilities to do) and on top of that she then has to face the threats and intimidation of anyone who deems her group transphobic for saying woman (which as we well know will happen very quickly).
Just sit and think about that for a minute.

So much better to go onto someone else's group, that they have taken the time and effort to set up, and get people involved, and get them to change their group, that they set the rules for, to accommodate one person who isn't happy with using trans inclusive language.

More to the point who on earth starts posts hey ladezz
No natal women speaks like this ever.

I'm an old school feminist which means I have always used gender neutral language and have always stated that biology is not destiny. I find it weird that some modern feminists insist that my womb defines me. Now, to the topic at hand. The only people who are going to be seeking help in a group about vaginas are people with vaginas. That may include trans men and trans women, and if you read or watch some information about gender confirming surgery you'll understand why a group like this might be helpful to post operative trans women. However there could also be some pervy men in there getting their kicks out of people taking about vaginas because it's the Internet and there's no way to police it properly. If you are worried about that happening, the best idea would be not to join an online forum, but maybe find an in_person support group (after covid obviously).

That is very reasonable, Sheilasfeels, I agree with all of it.

I would just ask the moderator for clarification in a neutral way. Answering a difficult question with a question is often the best approach in life. Your assumptions about the question's motivations may be wrong.

You could even ask if they have transmen and non-binary members and if so how do they prefer to handle the sensitivities associated.

I think this would be a reasonable approach given you are genuinely wanting to be inclusive of others while wanting to know they will be inclusive of you too. You are not trying to catch them out or anything. Only trying find out what's what without making yourself a target of loons if they are loons.

Yep. Trans people are the only people whose feelings matter and any feelings women have are totally irrelevant and to be disregarded.

Most people on this thread (I would assume) are women. I am a woman. You speak for a subsection of some women.

I don't think this is a trans issue. It's a pronoun thing. There could well be people in the group who are biologically female but don't identify that way and may prefer 'they'. Or a female may have a vag but want to transition to male and may need grouo support but not be addressed as female.

@TheBuffster

More to the point who on earth starts posts hey ladezz No natal women speaks like this ever.

I know! No one says that...way more normal to waltz in and say 'Hey fannies!'

Or maybe that's just in Scotland 😉

XX

You're absolutely right to be upset. You have a female health issue. It only effects women. You should be able to discuss this personal issue with other women without worrying that men will be listening to your experiences and concerns.
Should women expect to be able force their way into men's sexual health groups? I don't think they would be met with wokeness, they'd be told to bugger off.
This is not a group dedicated to the support of women. They are putting a small group of men's insistence on their female identity above caring for women.
Don't touch them with a barge pole.
Hope you find somewhere for real support and solidarity for what you're going through.
This is not that place.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

I think people are confusing sex and gender! Again. Woman = biological woman. Can present as male or female (gender) or neither/both etc. Does not possess Y chromosome. Transmen = biological woman (sex), male (gender). Man = biological man (sex). Can present as male or female (gender) or neither/both. Will possess y chromosome. Trans woman: biological man (sex). Female (gender).

There are intersex variations that do not fit within this binary system but these are exceptionally rare.

Gender can be changed. Chromosomes cannot.

But what is gender, without sex? Just a load of social stereotypes that are generally harmful to both sexes. Sex is biological reality. Gender is a construct that I am yet to see effectively quantified and proved. A bit like religion.

@TheBuffster

What human rights do trans men not have?

I don't know. Probably none. I am stating the principle, as a basic foundation of people not being discriminated against.

I do know that Trans people are discriminated against in many workplaces, subject to insults and abuse etc. And I can understand why a Transman suffering vagisimus would want not to be met with awkwardness, embarrassment, hostility or belittlement.

In the same way that the OP wants to be free to talk about her issues in an arena that she feels safe and comfortable in.

Some people want single sex groups, some are happy enough with single sex and gender together, some want a religious group, or a Welsh speaking group or whatever etc etc. All understandable.