Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

That's quite a privileged attitude, in my book. What about trans individuals in countries where getting surgeries are horribly expensive? Or it's illegal to be trans? Or they live in a family / community of actively transphobic individuals?

Surgery doesn't change your actual sex, so female trans people are still female. That's just biological reality.

You are so misinformed.

Enlighten us?

LOL I am a TERF, apparently, but I personally would be OK with discussing vaginisimus with a Transman.

I admit it would feel a bit weird, but I could live with that and would get used to it quickly.

I would feel less happy discussing it with a Transwoman.

Other people might not.

@CaraDuneRedux

Does anyone think for one moment that a man who contacted an online support group for, say, prostate cancer sufferers, would immediately be asked to pass some sort of woke test?

Of course he wouldn't.

My DH is currently waiting for results and further tests. He is regularly online about this.

You are not wrong.

I would have thought that post op trans women have a very different set of issues with their 'vaginas' than bio women, surely they would need their own help groups, bio women would generally not be of much use in regards of experience or advice as we only have the genitals we were born with and our life experiences since then.

Of course it's a woman's only issue!! Women have vaginas, men don't. I would feel uncomfortable.

I experienced this condition a long time ago. Felt biologically bloody female to me.

I'm an old school feminist which means I have always used gender neutral language and have always stated that biology is not destiny. I find it weird that some modern feminists insist that my womb defines me.
It's a testament to how confused this subject has become that I literally have no idea which "side" you are on with that statement.

@TheBuffster

Assuming there are actually trans men in that group, and let's face it it's statistically unlikely, a better way to approach it would be something like:

Welcome, in the spirit of inclusivity we ask our members use preferred pronouns when speaking to individuals. We realise this is an issue affecting women but ask that you be considerate of others' feelings given the sensitivity of the topic. We realise at times inclusive language is constructive given the nature of this group but would appreciate....

No, I can't even make it make sense without erasing women.

So yeah, erasing women seems to be the solution doesn't it.

Great. Very inclusive.

What about:

Welcome, This group is for all wanting to give and receive support for vagisimus. As an inclusive group we welcome everyone who is experiencing this condition and recognise the courage it takes to discuss it and the sensitivity that makes that more possible. This group is open to women and transmen who experience vagisimus. In the spirit of inclusivity we ask our members use preferred pronouns when speaking to individuals.

It seems to me that there are basically 3 choices here when it comes to definitions:
1 - define "woman" as sex-based (as it has been for millennia) and risk annoying a tiny minority of people

2- define "woman" as a gender-identity and remove a sizeable number of women from their own category and confuse the majority of people

3 - not really think about it too deeply and just say "you are whatever you think you are" and remove any actual meaning from the word.

YANBU.

I’m so sorry this has happened to you. You have a painful and debilitating condition which badly affects you (and only women get!) and you can’t join a support group in case you might hypothetically offend a woman who thinks she’s a man.

It’s insane. This whole agenda is misogyny writ large and I am sick of it. I’m so sorry OP.

You’re not unreasonable, you don’t need re-education. I hope you find a good support group soon. Maybe your GP could recommend one?

All the best.

not really think about it too deeply and just say "you are whatever you think you are" and remove any actual meaning from the word.

I think most of the people who actually know what a woman is but pretend not to fall in this category.

I hope the sarcasm would be evident?

Seems not

No worries at all, Weary my mistake!
(And yes, it is indeed "Cool It Cathy" - which I shall do next time before jumping to defense on a sarcastic post ! )

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You are so misinformed.

Enlighten us?

I believe the comment was in response to this:

"Then if they haven't had the surgery, they are not trans. Self-ID does not make you trans. In order to be transgender you have to have the surgery. If a person still has a vagina, they are a woman. That is basic biology and science"

So,

Then if they haven't had the surgery, they are not trans.
Not true, not by current legal definition or common usage of the term. The term 'transexual' used to be used and referred mostly (I think) to people who had had 'sex re-alignment surgery'. But Trans people established the right and the custom to be referred to as Trans by living as the gender (the construct of gender) that does not match their sex (aka in Trans language 'the sex assigned at birth') and can achieve a Gender Recognition Certificate that requires them to be treated in law as the preferred gender without having any surgery. Whatever your opinion on that, that's how it is.

Self-ID does not make you trans.
In most contexts it does. You can declare yourself Trans in many many contexts with nothing other than self i.d. The definition of Trans is so wide ranging (perhaps we should say 'inclusive' ) - how can you say what makes someone 'trans'? The only context in which you would need official approval beyond simple self-id is to get a GRC so that your passport, criminal record and other legal records can be assigned to your new gender.

In order to be transgender you have to have the surgery.
Factually wrong in terms of the equalities act, access to women's toilets , getting a GRC etc.

If a person still has a vagina, they are a woman.
Hence this discussion. But legally a person with a vagina can get themselves legal status as a woman.

That is basic biology and science
Hence this discussion....but biology is not the basis of the definition of Trans - hence the real tension and issues of women's sex based rights in the debate.

I’m really sorry you’ve had to go through this, it’s ridiculous. I have PCOS and if I tried to join a support group and went through this questioning I would also be angry. There are certain health related matters that only women will experience and wanting to support each other through that from a viewpoint of understanding is NOT transphobic.

[quote nickymanchester]@CaraDuneRedux

Does anyone think for one moment that a man who contacted an online support group for, say, prostate cancer sufferers, would immediately be asked to pass some sort of woke test?

Of course he wouldn't.

My DH is currently waiting for results and further tests. He is regularly online about this.

You are not wrong.[/quote]
I agree.

But a Transwoman might find it REALLY hard to get support in a Facebook group of men suffering prostate problems.

Which is sad.

TYPO!
In my post of 20.05 - But legally a person with a vagina can get themselves legal status as a woman MAN!

Heeyyy fannies and willy wavers, wassup?
My new catchphrase. Inclusive too.

‘...also aware that this does not make me inclusive’

Bollocks to that (pun intentional).

Going along with the herd is not inclusion.
Trust your common sense.
This group has lost their way & sense of purpose.

have PCOS and if I tried to join a support group and went through this questioning I would also be angry.

I think the r/PCOS subreddit went "inclusive". Along with r/pregnancy and r/periods. And by that I mean that biological males got to call the shots.

TheBuffster

What human rights do trans men not have?

I don't know.
Probably none.
I am stating the principle, as a basic foundation of people not being discriminated against.

So transgender people have the same rights as everyone else. Homosexual, transgender etc are protected catagories from hate speech.
Do you know what isn't a protected hate speech characteristic? Women.

That's why it's legal for someone to tell me I'm an ugly, terf and need to go suck on a cock.
But it's illegal for me to relatilate if the person saying it happens to be trans.

Women have rights that are being eroded by trans rights.

Like a rape victim's right to a female examiner.

Or a Muslim woman's right to a female doctor.

Or a teenage girls' right to have a period in a male free toilet.

Or a woman prisoner's right to not being housed with male rapists.

Or a woman sportspersons right to race against her peers and not male people.

So please don't bandy about 'human rights' and bray about discrimination. This is why so many of us think this matters. Because you're right, human rights are being denied.

But it's women's rights being denied.

I do know that Trans people are discriminated against in many workplaces, subject to insults and abuse etc

And who is doing that insulting 'banter'.

I suspect it might be men.