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Original poster

Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

999 replies

Nc109283485 · 07/01/2021 13:09

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

OP posts:
Hollybutnoivy · 07/01/2021 16:10

For agender / non-binary people, some identify as transgender to my knowledge.

This definition doesn't seem to take into account women who are female and don't have a gender identity but do have a sex. You know - probably most of the female population.

ncbby · 07/01/2021 16:10

Healthline definition : The prefix “cis” means “on the same side as.” So while people who are transgender move “across” genders, people who are cisgender remain on the same side of the gender they were initially identified as at birth.

Merriam-Webster definition: : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

Planned Parenthood definition: Most people who are assigned female at birth identify as girls or women, and most people who are assigned male at birth identify as boys or men. These people are cisgender (or cis).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:10

For example, someone who identifies as a woman and was assigned female at birth is a cisgender woman.

I don't "identify" as a woman. I don't have woman feelings or behave in a particular way. I am a woman because I am a member of the female sex. This was observed at my birth, and as with everyone without some kinds of disorders of sex development, it was correct.

LiJo2015 · 07/01/2021 16:11

OP - from your initial post. I feel angry on your behalf. Vaginismus is absolutely a woman problem so to even think that a group can include men/men transitioning is hugely offensive and utterly ridiculous. I would not want to join this group. I really hope you find a much more supportive and realistic group.

ncbby · 07/01/2021 16:12

This definition doesn't seem to take into account women who are female and don't have a gender identity but do have a sex. You know - probably most of the female population.

Individuals who have a biological sex and a lack of gender identity usually identify as non-binary / agender (unless I'm missing the point of the question which I might be!)

wildraisins · 07/01/2021 16:12

@thebabessavedme

'some men have vaginas' - really?
Yes. Really. Is that so hard to get your head around? Sex and gender are not the same.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:14

Is that so hard to get your head around? Sex and gender are not the same.

"Man" simply means "adult human male". What do you think it means?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:15

Individuals who have a biological sex and a lack of gender identity usually identify as non-binary / agender

Okay then so most of FWR are agender?

ncbby · 07/01/2021 16:17

Okay then so most of FWR are agender?

I have no idea, possibly (if that's how they chose to identify).

GlitterSandcastle · 07/01/2021 16:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the request of the OP.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 07/01/2021 16:18

Just like you did when you replied to my question about whether males should be in female health issue support groups?

I didn't get confused. I regard transgender males as males, and you don't. No confusion, just a difference of opinion there.

Hollybutnoivy · 07/01/2021 16:18

Individuals who have a biological sex and a lack of gender identity usually identify as non-binary / agender (unless I'm missing the point of the question which I might be!)

What I am trying to explain is that this "inclusive" way of referring to people by their gender identity (an internal feeling) means that you are excluding women who believe in SEX not gender identity from their own category. I refuse to "identify" as non-binary just because I don't believe in or recognise myself as having a gender identity. It is not inclusive to tell women that they are not women because they don't believe in an idea of gender. Confused

wildraisins · 07/01/2021 16:20

@Ereshkigalangcleg

For example, someone who identifies as a woman and was assigned female at birth is a cisgender woman.

I don't "identify" as a woman. I don't have woman feelings or behave in a particular way. I am a woman because I am a member of the female sex. This was observed at my birth, and as with everyone without some kinds of disorders of sex development, it was correct.

... Ok... therefore you identify as a woman. Surely?

The reason you identify as a woman is not really relevant. The statement "you identify as a woman" still applies. All that phrase means is that being a woman is a part of your identity, just like your age, race, religion etc.

You believe that having female chromosomes and genitalia makes you a woman. That's fine. The reason why you identify as a woman doesn't really matter. But you say you are a woman, therefore you do identify as a woman.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 07/01/2021 16:21

How fucking stupid. This shouldn't be "ooh, some people identify as male and they have vaginas we need to include them" because THEY ARE NOT HAVING PENIS IN VAGINA SEX WITH THEIR VAGINAS THEREFORE THEY WILL NOT HAVE VAGINISMUS.
If a female-to-male trans person is using their vagina for sex (i.e. triggering vaginismus) then how, exactly, are they being trans?
Seriously.
Vaginismus is a problem that literally only affects natal women.
(I'm pissed off because I wouldn't play along with the BS to join that same group either. And I'm not looking forward to when the PMDD groups become "inclusive").

Hollybutnoivy · 07/01/2021 16:21

I have no idea, possibly (if that's how they chose to identify).

You are not really getting it. The definition you gave would make them agender. THEY (for the most part) are not identifying as agender. Thus it is the definition that is wrong, surely? You can't have a fixed definition AND say you can "identify" with it or not. Words actually do have meanings.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:21

No confusion, just a difference of opinion there.

Only one of our mutually exclusive beliefs is founded on any sort of meaningful definition. Do you actually truly believe that biological sex doesn't exist? And my point stands, you were being entirely disingenuous, which is a bit rich when you're complaining about others doing the same, don't you think?

Nunoftheother · 07/01/2021 16:22

notreallybotheredaboutausernam: Transmen and some non binary people have vaginas too. But everyone here will agree with you as MN is fiercly anti-trans.

Why was this post deleted? So fed up with the constant over-zealous censorship on here - it's like a bloody dictatorship. (Not to mention pointless now at least three people have quoted it.) Angry

Hollybutnoivy · 07/01/2021 16:22

But you say you are a woman, therefore you do identify as a woman.

I don't know if you realise it but you are saying that "woman" has no inherent meaning.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:24

... Ok... therefore you identify as a woman. Surely?

I don't use the language of fringe identity politics beliefs. I am a woman simply by virtue of being female. If I "identify" as a cat, I'm still a human woman. If I identify as a man, I'm still a human woman.

ncbby · 07/01/2021 16:25

I refuse to "identify" as non-binary just because I don't believe in or recognise myself as having a gender identity.

So don't identify that way, that's absolutely fine. No-one should push you into having any specific gender identity, I've said some FWR women "possibly identify as non-binary (if that's how they choose to identify)", and that usually "people who don't have gender identity usually identify as non-binary / agender".

The Merriam Webster definition of "agender" is: : of, relating to, or being a person who has an internal sense of being neither male nor female nor some combination of male and female : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is genderless or neutral.

It is not inclusive to tell women that they are not women because they don't believe in an idea of gender.

To be fair, I've not said you're not a woman.

Hollybutnoivy · 07/01/2021 16:26

To be fair, I've not said you're not a woman.

So you agree that "woman" is based on your sex, not your gender identity?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:27

You believe that having female chromosomes and genitalia makes you a woman.

No. I believe, as do most people in the world, that being female makes me a woman. That is, that my body developed towards being able to produce large gametes (ova) as opposed to small gametes (sperm). Whether I actually can or not.

MissMarpleDarling · 07/01/2021 16:28

I enjoyed reading through this thread. I don't know amy trans males but I know a trans female and it wouldn't feel right for any of our male friends to discuss penis issues with her. Maybe she would feel different, as technically she has one, but I don't think I'll ask her. Good luck finding help OP xx

MissMarpleDarling · 07/01/2021 16:28

Any*

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2021 16:29

So don't identify that way, that's absolutely fine. No-one should push you into having any specific gender identity, I've said some FWR women "possibly identify as non-binary (if that's how they choose to identify)",

I don't. I don't have a gender identity because I don't need one. I do have a biological sex, in common with everyone else ever born. What am I?