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Capitol Hill and the next 2 weeks (Trump #118)

999 replies

Roussette · 07/01/2021 10:52

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4128051-Coup-on-Capitol-Hill-Trump-117

Fast moving threads....

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
ThatIsNotMyUsername · 08/01/2021 17:31

Trump not attending? What is he going pot for the day with his new girlfriend in another school or something?

dreamingbohemian · 08/01/2021 17:35

@DGRossetti

For now I would just call it political violence, or maybe a paramilitary attack. But you can probably make a case for 'failed coup', if we use the term loosely.

For all our sakes, let us hope it's not "dry run" ...

Definitely!

I agree his tweet about not attending is a signal. His other tweet about his followers not being disrespected might be a signal that pardons are coming.

The question is whether too many of his supporters feel betrayed by his video yesterday to show up again.

Yohoheaveho · 08/01/2021 17:36

Sorry Rousette I should have kept up with the thread more closely and realised you'd already pointed that out!

prettybird · 08/01/2021 17:36

Maybe he's just feart that if he is still in the US at 12:01pm on 20 January, he'll get arrested on the spot Wink

DuncinToffee · 08/01/2021 17:38

Re calling it a coup, this was David Allen Green's explanation on Wednesday

And to those fussing about whether this should have the word 'attempted coup':

  • the essential constitutional stage for a peaceful transfer of power has been been disrupted
  • by violent partisans
  • at the behest of the losing candidate
  • leaving the 20 Jan inauguration uncertain

Unless and until the Electoral College vote is certified by Congress then the position of the 20 January inauguration is uncertain

And this is why this purposeful violent disruption can be called fairly an 'attempted coup'

FGSWhatNow · 08/01/2021 17:39

Thank for the responses to my questions. Interesting that there's no real definitive answer! It may seem pedantic to ask "what should this be called?" but, as with so many debates, language matters, and the words people choose have ripples and consequences that may not be immediately apparent. The more this unfolds, the more shocked I am at how close it really was. DGR's link to the March on Rome is rather chilling.

Like you said, dreamingbohemian, there was such mix of people involved (that photo from inside the Capitol of the cable tie guy in full combat gear with the slightly bemused woman in the background!), it's not just a genie out of the bottle, it's several different genies all with differing gripes and complaints. And that's before you start to factor in the possibility of outside agents acting to whip up right wing sentiment in order to destabilise the country... I fear that this won't end with Trumps presidency.

DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 17:39

@Apileofballyhoo

The dry run aspect is worrisome. Imagine if the Trump administration was competent.
You do reach an interesting intersection in affairs where the people who are competent are also competent enough not to get involved. It's the resultant enforced cronyism (think Giuliani) that makes despotic regimes so unstable. You can only get so far putting your mates in charge before the whole shebang falls down. You only need to look at the UK for proof.

So if it was a "dry run" it was a spectacularly inept one, as the whole point of a "dry run" is that it doesn't change the environment you intend to commit the ultimate action in. However it's entirely possible that Trumps cable genuinely think "dry run" just means he got to the bathroom on time. For a change.

It's well worth wargaming all of these things (fuck all else to do in lockdown). Let's assume that come Jan 20th, "something" happens that derails Bidens inauguration to the extent that he does not become POTUS (I would suggest this would need some legal expertise, but the whole point of revolutions and coups is they tend not to respect the existing law and precedent).

What then ?

As a planet, what then ? Does the rest of the world go "Oh, OK, we thought your Constitution provided for democractic leadership. But now you've abandoned that we're quite happy to remain allies/enemies" and carry on as if it was the most normal thing in the world ?

What is NATOs brief here ? (Curious to recall how much Trump hated NATO). My recollection from the bad old days of the 1970s was that NATO members had a brief to intervene if a member state fell victim to a coup/revolution. If that still holds, what does the UK do ?

I hope that out there, some people in power - or that answer to people in power - have some immediate and cogent answers to all those questions. If not I would consider it a failure of strategic analysis and want someones head on a plate.

Roussette · 08/01/2021 17:41

YoHo No problem at all, it's v important and needs pointing out continually I think.
To announce just after this invastion of the Capitol, that he's not going, to me is very ominous.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 17:42

The more this unfolds, the more shocked I am at how close it really was. DGR's link to the March on Rome is rather chilling.

Not as chilling as the fact that probably less than 5% of anyone you ask in your circle (unless they are Italian) would have a clue what you meant.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 08/01/2021 17:44

A police chief talking about the Capitol incursion:

He said a large amount of government paperwork along with electronic devices and other items were stolen from congressional offices during the disturbance, which “could have national security implications.”

And they need to rewire the entire place, because any power point in the entire building could have been used to give supply to a modern (tiny) surveillance device, and it would be a really obvious opportunity for any number of such to have been planted by justabout anyone. Foreign nationals wouldn't even have to do it themselves; just give a couple of dozen to a dozy Trumpist (but I repeat myself) and tell him putting those on the wiring would really own the Libs, and he'd do it like a shot. And you can get a device that looks like a standard USB lead, but if you plug a keyboard into it it'll take a copy of everything typed on it; useful for let's hazard a guess and say Russia, that.

DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 17:47

And they need to rewire the entire place, because any power point in the entire building could have been used to give supply to a modern (tiny) surveillance device, and it would be a really obvious opportunity for any number of such to have been planted by justabout anyone. Foreign nationals wouldn't even have to do it themselves; just give a couple of dozen to a dozy Trumpist (but I repeat myself) and tell him putting those on the wiring would really own the Libs, and he'd do it like a shot. And you can get a device that looks like a standard USB lead, but if you plug a keyboard into it it'll take a copy of everything typed on it; useful for let's hazard a guess and say Russia, that.

Hmm

If they haven't got an electronic hygiene programme in place then why the fuck am I sitting here without a job while some desk jockey is coining it in ?????

security is a journey, not a destination.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 08/01/2021 17:48

I would suggest their security is seriously compromised at present, and I hope they are sorting it out asap. That was all.

Roussette · 08/01/2021 17:49

Asking That is shocking. The implications of what happened is enormous. Who knows what they could've got up to in there. As time goes on, the whole thing gets more and more serious.
Of course it could've been worse as far as deaths, but there are a lot of other problems too

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 08/01/2021 17:51

I don't think they can really stop the inauguration. Biden can be sworn in by the chief justice in a broom closet. This is also probably why Trump conceded as he did in that video, there is not really anything left to do to prevent the transfer of power, all they can do is create a lot of chaos.

Igotjelly · 08/01/2021 17:51

I suspect it's more likely he isn't going to the inauguration because he's terrified he'll get arrested. The man is all about self preservation.

dreamingbohemian · 08/01/2021 17:53

There is absolutely no question that there were foreign intel guys in that crowd. I mean, any foreign operative who didn't take advantage of that opportunity would be sacked immediately!

Igotjelly · 08/01/2021 17:58

Got to say this makes me feel little better.

Capitol Hill and the next 2 weeks (Trump #118)
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 08/01/2021 17:59

People taking stuff out and people putting stuff in would be equally a nuisance to deal with from a security point of view, I suspect.

One of the people arrested, and taken to court today, had to have a Russian interpreter to tell the judge he'd had no idea what was going on. He might even have actually been Russian.

DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 18:01

@Igotjelly

Got to say this makes me feel little better.
Make me feel 100x worse.

The fact the question needed to be asked in the first place In the US really doesn't inspire confidence.

I detest and loath the entire UK government, and Boris with a special passion. But imagine if someone like Lindsay Hoyle had to publicly issue a statement like that ?????

Seems the US needs more fixing that is possible in 4 years.

DuncinToffee · 08/01/2021 18:03

More on this twitter thread
twitter.com/heatherscope/status/1347587491759595521?s=19

WOW, from Speaker Pelosi: “This morning, I spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley to discuss available precautions for preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes and ordering a nuclear strike

DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 18:06

.

Capitol Hill and the next 2 weeks (Trump #118)
DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 18:08

@DuncinToffee

More on this twitter thread twitter.com/heatherscope/status/1347587491759595521?s=19

WOW, from Speaker Pelosi: “This morning, I spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley to discuss available precautions for preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes and ordering a nuclear strike

I have to admit, I admire the restraint of the Iranian government at this point. They would be entirely justified in raising extreme concern at unfolding events and pile pressure on by demanding assurances they won't be attacked by a mad mango Mussolini.
dreamingbohemian · 08/01/2021 18:09

This sounds about right:

@pwnallthethings
For folks panicking about Trump's continued access to nukes, here's how his authority would play out if he tried it:

  1. He directs SecDef to do it
  2. SecDef gets on the phone to VP and Cabinet members
  3. They invoke 25A, tell STRATCOM that Trump is no longer president
  4. The end
FinallyHere · 08/01/2021 18:10

Interesting thread

I've also been following a professor of Boston College, Heather Cox Richardson,

on Facebook and on her web site

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/people/4875576-heather-cox-richardson

DGRossetti · 08/01/2021 18:12

@dreamingbohemian

This sounds about right:

@pwnallthethings
For folks panicking about Trump's continued access to nukes, here's how his authority would play out if he tried it:

  1. He directs SecDef to do it
  2. SecDef gets on the phone to VP and Cabinet members
  3. They invoke 25A, tell STRATCOM that Trump is no longer president
  4. The end
And if they don't ?

I still retain my 1980s "we're all going to die in a nuclear war" mindset - maybe why 2020 wasn't so upsetting.