Capitol Hill and the next 2 weeks (Trump #118)

[Roussette]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4128051-Coup-on-Capitol-Hill-Trump-117

Fast moving threads....

You and me both, *Destinysdaughter".

Never was the phrase "shit just got real" more apt.

Call me cynical, but i feel like Republicans are only taking Trump's words, threats, supporters seriously now that their OWN lives have been threatened.
I think that's partially true but equally yesterday was absolutely the most unequivocal, indisputable instance of the effects of Trump's rhetoric and almost impossible to excuse.

I also think the Republicans see an opportunity. Had yesterday not occurred, Trump would have remained one of, if not the most, powerful people in the Republican party (much to the chagrin of traditional conservatives who seem to have viewed Trump as an extremely flawed means to an end).

They now have an excuse to potentially significantly reduce his influence, and disqualify him from holding office in the future.

The words of "First they came for the Communists" have never been so true.

People saw what he was like at the start of this presidency.
But they were dismissed.

Nancy Pelosi is very pissed off.

@dreamingbohemian

We may see more cabinet resignations so they don't have to deal with invoking the 25th

In which case, it's impeachment

Henry Zeffman tweeted this

Something I missed on first skim is that this doesn't take effect for three days... which leaves a window for 25th amendment action to be put together if that's what's going on

(first skim of her resignation statement)

Presidents dont actually really 'have the nuclear codes'. They may have a number or code words but they share that with the officer whos actually in charge of it all. He'd be the one making the decision.

'Her' is Elaine Chao in case that wasn't clear

When will Warnock and Ossoff be sworn in?

Memory is hazy on this but in the 80s a soviet sub carrying nuclear warheads lost all communication and it seemed to them as well as their instruments telling them that nuclear war had broken out, the captain had to make the decision to fire the missles (which he was required to do) He decided not to in the end and saved the world. He was actually persecuted for it in the SU, but my point is that it comes down to a seperate indepent, relatively powerless military officer to launch that stuff so its a bit safer than you might think.

To some extent it is possible to challenge misplaced beliefs by means of education. It is glaringly obvious that American children are taught some fundamental untruths about their country - I have seen this in my own children's experience in their formative years and can only guess that there are millions and millions of children who have had the same experience. There are very problematic parts of history education in particular that need to be tackled: belief in American exceptionalism, glossing over slavery, glossing over the history of race relations since the Civil War, the imparting of the idea that American history is a history of progress, just to identify a few areas.

I disagree to some extent that education is a panacea for all of this. The problem with conspiracy theorists and weavers of grotesque political fantasy is a moral one. They engage in a morally dubious piecing together of information, seeing patterns that support their feelings and inclinations, aka confirmation bias.

The tendency to opt for the simple answer offered by a dynamic of them against us is morally problematic too, often a response to an unexamined sense of fear or the perception of loss, which are based on a lack of a belief in fundamental equality. It is lazy thinking. It lacks a sense of humility.

Belief in conspiracy theories accordions into belief in widespread conspiracies behind everything. It's a slippery slope. You end up believing nothing except the idea that someone or something out there is coming after your guns or your rights. You see yourself as the centre of a hostile universe and extrapolate from that point to general political theories about attack and the need for defense. This is both lazy and immature.

The Josh Hawleys of the GOP have been chastised by Mitt Romney for putting ambition ahead of respect for the Constitution. Hawley saw the opportunity presented by scorn for black Americans and white anger and ran with it, a fundamentally dishonest choice.

Mary Miller, a Congressional representative from a southern Illinois district but originally from a wealthy Chicago area suburb with excellent public schools addressed the mob yesterday with the words, "In a few elections, we're still going to be losing unless we win the hearts and minds of our children. This is the battle. Hitler was right on one thing. He said whoever has the youth has the future." She has a Bachelors degree in elementary education from a reputable university.

There are several moral choices involved in coming to that conclusion and standing up in broad daylight to encourage a mob with those words, representing a conservative group dedicated to educating Americans on 'the principles of free government' called "Moms for America". This woman blew right past all sorts of red flags and has not responded to calls to resign. There are people who will vote for her when she is up for re-election. Or perhaps she has sketched out a future for herself involving pushing the envelope on the fascist talk circuit.

oh I misremembered a lot of that, it was during the cuban missile crises and was nuclear torpedoes but nevermind. Vasily Arkhipov.

I have little sympathy for any republicans at this stage. Even after the events of yesterday, 2/3rds of Republicans in the house voted against the ratification of the Pennsylvania vote. Speeches including those alleging election fraud and asserting that the invasion of the Capitol was by Antifa pretending to be Trump supporters were greeted with cheers and, at times, standing ovations.

We are back to the universal truth of "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" (I'm aware that the exact wording and the provenance is questionable, but the meaning is clear) - all those who stayed silent while Trump's actions led up to this are as guilty as those who actively encouraged him.

Hopefully as Biden has all 3 levels for the next 2 years he will able to use the outrage of the world to kick some sense into the system

@ListeningQuietly
The average American middle-aged and up has been brought up on a steady diet of pure, unshakeable scorn for the rest of the world.

Americans are explicitly taught that America is a chosen country, the only place where anyone has any rights, a beacon of democracy for the entire universe, superior and exceptional in every way, and that America has a divine right and even a duty to run the rest of the world.

The opinion of the rest of the world matters to a tiny, tiny minority of Americans. The vast majority circle the wagons and consider any outside criticism of America as a direct personal attack on them.

Mypathtriedtokillme

“EvilPea
How on Earth they will unify that country I don’t know. They are so angry and believe the votes were stolen.”

The delicious irony being that is what prevented many of them from engaging in Georgia, ensuring a Democrat win.

www.thenation.com/article/politics/capitol-trump-insurrection-explosions/

Worth a read.

“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.”

@Destinysdaughter

Call me cynical, but i feel like Republicans are only taking Trump's words, threats, supporters seriously now that their OWN lives have been threatened.

Definitely

The mob may be celebrating today but they went too far and the response is going to be pretty hardcore

Pence was with his family in the building, they had to shelter while listening to people running around yelling, Where's Pence? Knowing that Trump had made him the scapegoat. He must have thought he and his family were going to be lined up against a wall and shot.

I don't feel sorry for him, he directly contributed to all this, but that kind of experience will shock some sense into you.

Michael S. Schmidt @nytmike
EXCLUSIVE: Trump has suggested to aides he wants to pardon himself in the final days of his presidency, a move that would mark one of the most extraordinary and untested uses of presidential power in American history. w/@maggieNYT
www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/us/politics/trump-self-pardon.html
Trump Is Said to Have Discussed Pardoning Himself

The discussions occurred in recent weeks, and it was not clear whether he has brought it up since he incited a mob of supporters to attack the Capitol.

President Trump has suggested to aides he wants to pardon himself in the final days of his presidency, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions, a move that would mark one of the most extraordinary and untested uses of presidential power in American history.

In several conversations since Election Day, Mr. Trump has told advisers that he is considering giving himself a pardon and, in other instances, asked whether he should and what the impact would be on him legally and politically, according to the two people. It was not clear whether he has broached the topic since he incited his supporters on Wednesday to storm the Capitol in a mob attack.

Mr. Trump has shown signs that his level of interest in pardoning himself goes beyond idle musings. He has long maintained he has the power to pardon himself and his polling of aides’ views is typically a sign that he is preparing to follow through on his aims. He has also become increasingly convinced that his perceived enemies will use the levers of law enforcement to target him after he leaves office.

Susan Hennessey @Susan_Hennessey
I think this would backfire on Trump. As it stands, there's a vanishing low chance DOJ tries to prosecute a former president. The issues are massively complicated, it would threaten norms, and be a mess. But Trump pardoning himself would itself threaten the rule of law.

The Justice Department might feel compelled to challenge the validity of a self-pardon, in the interest of preserving important principles of accountability. In other words, a self-pardon might be the one thing that forces DOJ's hand to prosecute him.

Of course, it is possible that DOJ would pursue a prosecution even without a pardon. But I think it would require really overwhelming evidence of egregious criminality, beyond anything currently known. With Trump, that's not outside the realm of possibility. But still unlikely.

Of course an innocent man would pardon themselves.

Great post mathanxiety

Thats true maths, it never fails to amaze me the amount of people from the US who are willing to openly (and unsolicited) spout about america being 'the greatest country in the world'. It would never occur to some of them that it can seem like an authoritarian place to the rest of the western world. Seems to be just under half the population though. Maybe the coastal bits should actually secede and join Canada.

I also find the hooting about how great 1776 was and all that a bit strange when the alternative would have been somewhere exactly like Canada.

Law enforcement, especially the FBI, are going to be all over this too, knowing they have new bosses on the way. They will gladly round up as many of these idiots as they can, will look great for their stats and get them tons of intel that they can use to break up local groups.

DenisetheMenace they dont actually believe the votes were stolen. They're pretending they do.

www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/trump-business-allies-start-to-distance-themselves-from-him-after-capitol-hill-riot.html
President Trump’s business allies start to distance themselves from him after Capitol Hill riot

After years of defending and sticking by him, several of President Donald Trump’s allies in the business world started to distance themselves from him after Wednesday’s deadly riot on Capitol Hill.

The pullback casts doubt on whether these business leaders will back him in the future – including whether he runs for president again in 2024.

“Bye, bye, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley and Donald Trump,” one of the president’s top campaign bundlers said, also mentioning the two Republican senators who led objections to Joe Biden’s Electoral College victory. “He’s done,” the person added, referring to Trump.