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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Coup on Capitol Hill (Trump#117)

999 replies

ZZTopGuitarSolo · 06/01/2021 20:46

The ongoing Trump saga.

Continuing from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4110252-May-Hope-and-History-Rhyme-Trump-116

OP posts:
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22
Songsofexperience · 07/01/2021 08:40

There was no attempt to balance opinion

Balanced journalism does not mean condoning violence. There are rules in society. This was not a peaceful protest.

Roussette · 07/01/2021 08:41

greenshoots if you choose to watch CNN you know what you are getting. They are not a fan of Trump or Republicans. you can choose another channel and get a completely opposite view. Like Fox.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2021 08:43

Radley Balko @radleybalko
Handgun. Zip ties. Punisher logo.

This image tells a huge story. And is a big worry.

Why did this guy have cable ties? What were they for?

You don't just randomly carry them around.

You can have a debate about guns and the legality of carrying them in DC. And whether BLM could v the Capitol Stormers.

But cable ties?

That suggests a degree of hope of storming the building. With the plan of taking hostages, if they found the right people. Possibly with the intention of executing them. This is a QAnon Fantasy which is circulating.

That smacks of terrorist intent.

The UN definition of terrorism is:
"All criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public."

Attacking a state building constitutes an attack on the state. It was definitely intended to intimate certain people (the note left on Pelosi's desk or the slogan 'murder the media' graffitied on the doors of the building). And the motivation was undeniably politically driven.

This photo (its getty images retweeted by a Washington Post columnist if you are looking for verification on authenticity) demonstrates just how dark and troubling it is.

Its suggesting strongly there is a risk of an American Jo Cox.

We already know how Trump has incited along those lines. Its real and people are taking it seriously.

And its a hint at how yesterday COULD have gone.

If the police really DID just open the barriers to these people as videos seem to suggest, thats incredibly worrying.

In that sense, its a whole lot darker than simply 'why didn't they arrest more people like BLM' or 'why wasnt their sufficient security beforehand like BLM'.

Given we know that Trump organised a rally calling these people to DC and he ultimately was the one in charge of security arrangements and didn't consider it appropriate to defend Congress adequately its dark.

I do think that with that in mind debates over why early on were there no more arrests and why were the trump supporters not confronted more aggressively rather than taken a defensive line to protect Congress need to be seen in this light.

They were outnumbered and the trump supporters were heavily armed. They walked into the building in a stroll as if they had all the time in the world. If challenged how would that have changed? Would it have been more of a risk.

Thoughts of what could have happened are frightening.

Are CNN right to use the word 'terrorism' and 'terrorists'?

I'd argue if you can't manage to call these people domestic terrorists then the problem with your political culture really does run deep to a frightening level.

Its not about being devisive at this stage. Its about correctly and clearly identifying the nature of the risk that is posed.

If you fail to do this you put those threatened by it, at even greater risk because you are minimising what is happening, the form its taking and who is enabling it.

You can dismiss it as 'just a harmless funny meme off the internet' when people are reading and getting into this idea.

Its not about creating division. Its about understanding what is actually happening accurately and just how serious it is.

Coup on Capitol Hill (Trump#117)
Icanseegreenshoots · 07/01/2021 08:44

You can be shocked and horrified, as we all were watching those scenes, but perhaps not surprised.

The bigger questions still remain.

How on earth was it ever allowed to happen? And when it was obvious to all where it was headed why then did it take hours and hours to drum up security and police? Hours longer still for any military personnel to arrive. Had there been a 'real' terrorist incident we would have expected and seen to helicopters, FBI, military and police in droves immediately. Within minutes the place would have been surrounded. Why didn't that happen?

As the hours passed last night, dh and I sat there asking where the hell was the back up? How was this ever allowed to happen in the first place? Why did they not have the place surrounded with minutes much less hours and hours later.

For a while it did indeed look very much like a coup to me.

Lets talk about the uncomfortable truth.

Sleipnirthewonderhorse · 07/01/2021 08:46

All certified, at last.

cbt944 · 07/01/2021 08:46

@Icanseegreenshoots

God I long for an ignore button

Summarising perfectly why we are where we are today.

You can not simply ignore every view that is different from yours. You fail to educate yourself in other views, and then you become myopic rather quickly. Incapable of assessing neutrally.

Patronising drivel. Fuck off.
Laureline · 07/01/2021 08:47

I can’t help but think that if these rioters had been black, the police would have shot and killed several of them... But white mini-fascists, let’s be soft.

CremeEggThief · 07/01/2021 08:49

I haven't posted since last night, so only just found out about the 4 deaths. Sad

Why can't they arrest Donald Trump and detain him in a high security mental hospital? I've thought since very early in his presidency (actually, even before) that he's clearly mentally unfit for office and I even gave him the benefit of the doubt early on, a couple of times, on that basis.

Is what happened last night going to happen again before and after the inauguration?

Icanseegreenshoots · 07/01/2021 08:56

*Are CNN right to use the word 'terrorism' and 'terrorists'?

I'd argue if you can't manage to call these people domestic terrorists then the problem with your political culture really does run deep to a frightening level*

You do have to distinguish the difference between a normal Trump supporter that is showing support, and the seemingly organised criminals that broke the law.
If you lump them together then you are basically only inciting more division.
Clearly not every Trump supporter is a thug and a criminal even if you don't agree with their politics. In the same way that not every Biden supporter has a halo strapped around their head.

Divisive politics will end in violence unless each side can be heard and respected.
For all of time that has been the case. Closing down the debate means that you only give the other party one avenue available to them and that is protest and by extension violence.

Lets hope that is the last burst we will see from the Trump administration. It is heartbreaking that four people have lost their lives. Many police officers have been injured. Millions of Americans will be so shaken and frightened. Many more around the world wondering WTAF is happening in the world. This kind of lawlessness can never happen again. It is an utter security failure, I believe a deliberate one.

littlebillie · 07/01/2021 08:56

On a lighter note

Danny Zuker -Twitter

"Suspended from all social media, @realDonaldTrump is currently ranting about Mitt Romney on an Amazon customer review page for dress socks."

Lonelycrab · 07/01/2021 08:56

Excellent post from Red.

How on earth was it ever allowed to happen?

Because Trumps in charge of the security forces is my guess.

Within minutes the place would have been surrounded. Why didn't that happen?

If it had turned into a stand-off, it would have become a bloodbath.

Icanseegreenshoots · 07/01/2021 08:58

Patronising drivel. Fuck off

if that is the true extent of your contribution then you are part of the problem, not the solution.

cbt944 · 07/01/2021 08:59

Ugh, mansplaining.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 07/01/2021 08:59

This was an active attempt to subvert the democratic process that is what makes it different in my mind. This wasn’t a protest that had low level criminality, this was direct action aimed at blocking the ratification of Biden as President. It is not comparable with BLM or any other normal street protest.
I had a Godwin’s law moment and I am sure I was not the only one.

Roussette · 07/01/2021 09:01

greenshoots I agree.... in that how come the Capitol Police were so soft with the terrorists/protestors?

I could've told them this was going to happen. Trump directed it at midday, the crowds were there ready to do his bidding. Why were the police caught on the back foot.
Why did they open barriers to let them through at the top of the steps. And what about taking selfies with them inside the capitol building...

I agree with Red ... what could've happened doesn't bear thinking about. I, like others, watched it live and there was a period when the terrorists (I want to call them that) were wandering round like they owned the building. They had time to set up bombs with timers in the building.No security, no helicopters, planes, armed police, tear gas. This is why they are so joyful, to these Trump supporters they achieved what they wanted. And weren't arrested. Last count about 50 arrested I heard.

All those inside the building should be arrested

How this has been handled has made the US a laughing stock and this started over 4 years ago unfortunately. Proof that checks and balances haven't worked and it's brought us to this day.

IamTomHanks · 07/01/2021 09:02

So now he's getting his minions to Tweet for him:

Trump’s social media aide Dan Scavino has tweeted a “Statement by President Donald J. Trump on the Electoral Certification”:

Even though I totally disagree with the outcome of the election, and the facts bear me out*, nevertheless there will be an orderly transition on January 20th. I have always said we would continue our fight to ensure that only legal votes were counted. While this represents the end of the greatest first term in presidential history, it’s only the beginning of our fight to Make America Great Again!”

Icanseegreenshoots · 07/01/2021 09:02

lonely you do know that reinforcements were called for almost immediately? As soon as it was obvious that many more thousands had turned up rather than the estimated 10,000?

They certainly took their own sweet time to get there too (a few hours maybe at best, via the drive through Mcdonalds perhaps and a quick shop at Walmart) and leisurely arrived in no rush whatsoever.

The problem goes far far deeper than many assume on here.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 07/01/2021 09:03

Titus
@TitusNation
·
6m
This statement Trump released is to stop the 25th amendment plan. Don't buy it. The man tried to overthrow the government and become a dictator. He done it EVERY TIME and so many go "Okay, I guess we're done here." He will start a fukn war next, take the nuke codes. No bullshit.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2021 09:04

If you take the 'hard position' of treating all Republicans like terrorists and racists, then you can literally expect the US to go up in flames, and I would not be so sure of what will be left at the end. We are talking about 50% of the population. It is not a handful of white supremacists, but half the entire nation.

I was disappointed in Biden's speech, but I am extremely hopeful he will make an outstanding President, sooner the better. He surely needs to know that whilst throwing the thugs that broke into Capitol Hill into prison for a very long time, he also needs to win over the respect and trust of those that didn't vote for him, if he is to avoid presiding over the worst civil war in American history. This is not about the thugs breaking glass - and vandalising institutions but stopping a much bigger, ever deepening, highly damaging fracture within society itself.

@Icanseegreenshoots,
I don't think you really understand what all those creatures from the overheated imagination of Steve Bannon et al are doing right now in the US, or how strong their motivation is to keep on doing it.

They are not engaged with the democratic process at all, and wooing them back is neither the task of the incoming President and his administration, nor will it be possible to do that since he has already committed a cardinal sin in the eyes of the racists and fascists who made a show of strength today at the behest of the Republican President who was GOP flavour of the month up until he lost the election. Biden chose a black woman as VP and he himself served as VP to a black President, so he is now seen as a traitor by the rampaging mob, all those militias Trump told to stand ready, all the 'fine people' who draw their inspiration from Germany and Italy in the 1920s.

The job of consigning the Bolsheviks of the Capitol building to the dustbin of history belongs squarely to the Republican Party that nurtured and encouraged them.

They played with fire and they now need to put it out. It is time to see what Mitch McConnell is made of.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 07/01/2021 09:06

icanseegreenshoots

Biden has said practically nothing except "we need to come together" "I want to be a president for all Americans" "we need to reach across the aisle" etc etc. Some on the far left criticise him for it. He's famed for his bipartisan approach and achievements in his long career.

I think you are the one that can't distinguish between trump voters and the terrorists in the Capitol yesterday. Criticising the terrorists doesn't mean you think all Republican voters are seditious traitors. It's really fucking disingenuous to claim it does. You are the one being devisive. CNN are allowed to call the people committing terrorism offences "terrorists" without having to say "not all republicans are like this" because obviously they aren't and it would be ridiculous to claim otherwise.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 07/01/2021 09:06

It seems clear to me the Capitol police were complicit. Trump has been carefully positioning his supporters in the right places for this to happen. It was he, with his dominance of the DoD, who stopped the National Guard going in. Of course this was a coup attempt orchestrated by Trump. He is fomenting civil war.

CrotchBurn · 07/01/2021 09:07

I normally have zero interest in American politics but obviously there was no choice but yo watch this yesterday.

I believe the whole thing was 100% staged but by who and why i dont know.

How else is it possible in trigger happy America for them to get so far in, so slowly? Do they not have riot police in America like in France? How is America's most important building that unprotected?

It makes zero sense. Look at how France handled the gilets jaunes and that was out on public streets everyone has a right to be on.

You're telling me in america they just sat around letting rioters break in like that? No way. I think this is all theatre.

MaryLeeOnHigh · 07/01/2021 09:07

What actually needs to happen is dialogue at this stage, people incite violence and protest when they feel ignored, marginalised and unheard.

That doesn't mean they have to be pandered to; we are entitled to examine whether their feeling is justified. The simple fact is that these are not people who have been ignored, marginalised and unheard; on the contrary, they have had their hero in power for four years and have been very much heard. They feel angry because that state of affairs is not going to continue because they are in the minority - but they still have a lot of representatives in power, so it's hardly as if they don't have a voice.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2021 09:09

@Laureline

I can’t help but think that if these rioters had been black, the police would have shot and killed several of them... But white mini-fascists, let’s be soft.
But thats also indictive of who is organising the security, not just the police themselves.

If you are suited up in full riot gear and have hundreds standing shoulder to shoulder with you, its easy to be more confident and aggressive towards those you are standing against. Especially if the crowd is scared of you to begin with to a certain extent.

When you've got a flimsy barrier which isn't even secured, you are out numbered and poorly equipped against a crowd baying for blood, armed to the teeth and has fantasies of executing people, then maybe you might not feel so inclined to act aggressively.

Thats NOT to say that the security forces don't have problem with institutional racism and aren't sympathetic to Trump.

Its saying that since Trump was directly responsible for the protection of the Capitol AT THE SAME TIME as inciting a mob against it, he wasn't exactly looking out for the security staff or the people in the building some of whom are supposed to be his allies. He was quite happy for people in his own party to be at risk.

When you demand unquestioning loyalty from your party and then place them at such risk thats got to hurt and thats got to have shaked the faith of many Republican Congress people.

ESPECIALLY when Trump then refused to call in the National Guard to protect you.

The fact that Pence acted unilaterally or has quietly unofficially invoked the 25th and there is any level of serious consideration by the Cabinet to invoke the 25th which seems to be the case, says a lot.

They realise that Trump would happily sacrife their lives for his greater personal political ambition.

IamTomHanks · 07/01/2021 09:10

willing to resort to (relatively) low-level criminality (trespassing in this case, vandalism and criminal damage in the BLM case) to highlight their point.

Are you seriously calling storming the Capitol Building to stop the democratically elected next President of the US being confirmed "Trespassing". They stormed past police and broke tons of shit, left bombs and launched tear gas around, and one woman was shot and killed in the protest, they didn't duck under a fence and go for a stroll.

Jesus wept, the levels of denial you have to reach to to compare what just happened to trespassing has to be classified as insanity.

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