How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

@HeyGirlHeyBoy Santy is a REALLY Dub thing to say! Working class Dub.

I find it very peculiar when visiting England that it's assumed that Ireland is classless and that we all hail from a West of Ireland type cultural background. I'd a helpful guy point me to "the Catholic side" of a large English graveyard when I was doing family research- my ancestors were C of E and Methodist!

Really, always think of Santy as quite a country thing! I've learned a lot today! Yes so true re West of Ireland. I went on Erasmus with some lovely English students way back but when I think of it I see now they looked at me as some kind of cute 'say that again' entertainment at times, while many of them didn't know we had our own currency and flag etc!

So funny re BOJO BESS

Out of interest why are the Irish speaking schools so hard to get into & what are the advantages of attending one? Are they only for primary or is there second level Irish speaking schools too?

@Norfolker

Out of interest why are the Irish speaking schools so hard to get into & what are the advantages of attending one? Are they only for primary or is there second level Irish speaking schools too?

There are primary and secondary Irish language schools, yes.

Tbh I think a lot of it is that they are somewhat 'exclusive' without having the accompanying price tag. You're less likely to find children with additional needs or children of foreign nationals in a Gaelscoil. Ime anyway from the ones I have visited/worked in.

I also think they are trendy and no doubt some of the parents are into Irish. Higher points if you sit exams through Irish as well.

There is a problem maybe in areas with high populations of young families. You'd get into our two local ones fine. Tho best if you've been to an Irish preschool. Yes there are secondaries also. We had a place and after a bit of thought, declined it.

@NothingIcando

That's funny you should mention the Irish speaking schools. The lady is was speaking about has her kids in one, they had their names down from birth Both her & her DH laugh about the fact that neither of them speak the native language but love the school.. I wouldn't be able to cope not knowing the language. They're very brave!

Yes this is my sister. Had her kids names down from the birth and even had the children baptised despite not believing in god or having any faith (at the time it was a requirement to get into an irish school. I dont think this is the case anymore though). But it was all for 'the look' the school is miles away.
They are in long hours wrap around care and get home very late because of the distance. It makes life so difficult for them but sure...they look the part,dont they?

This sort of nonsense and stereotyping about gaelscoils annoys me. My children go to a gaelscoil(one now to a gaelcholaiste) and none of this applies. We moved to the area the April before my eldest was due to start and he got a place in no problem, all children who apply tend to get in. We chose it because it was the only multi denominational coed school in the area. The school is beside a local council estate and lots of kids from there go there. There is nothing elite about it.

Again we chose Gaelcholaiste even though it is 25km away because it is the only multi denominational secondary in the area. The other schools led with religion plays a very important role here and that's not us. We are in a hurling county and the other secondaries push sport a lot, my ds isn't sporty so the school with lots of science and computer clubs which is the gaelcholaiste suited him best.

It's nothing to do with looking the part and everything to do with selecting the right school environment for our children with the bonus of them becoming bilingual and learning to love their language in a way that I never or their father ever did.

I have a couple of snobs in my family with lots of notions. They are worse than any snob I have met in UK.
My experience of Irish education was not good. Very restrictive, uninteresting and way too broad. My experience in UK is through my kids but they learn way more interesting stuff than I did. And the way Irish was taught - with a fervour that put the fear of God in you. Admittedly that was a few years ago now.... But I do have some more recent insight from nieces and nephews and friends...

@Norfolker
There are schools teaching through Irish at post-primary level, but fewer than at primary level. 8.1% of children were educated through the medium of Irish at primary level in 2018/19 (includes Gaelscoileanna and Gaeltacht/Irish-speaking areas). 3.6% were educated through the medium of Irish at post-primary level.
The Gaelscoil in my local area is not elitist in the slightest. It's not hard to get into either.
People who are interested in Irish send their children there, but others send their children there because it's the nearest school. So the reasons vary.
As a pp mentioned, you can get extra points by doing exams through Irish at leaving cert level.

I like the sound of your leaving certificate. Every child does the same paper or is there levels?
But it's points that count & the brightest or most prepared do well. Basically anyone from any school can do which degree course they want if they get the allocated points? It's not connections or nepotism?

Haven’t read all the posts but worth remembering the north and south are really quite different- class is very obvious in NI, particularly as there are grammar and secondary schools! And the Irish speaking schools in Belfast are most definitely not posh or elite or anyway comparable to a private school!

There's three levels for each paper. Foundation, ordinary and higher. Most do a mix of ordinary and higher. All sit the exams at the same time for the whole country

To get into university you have to Pass the ordinary level or higher level maths, english and Irish. (You used to have to pass a foreign language but they have changed that) then you must also have at least 6 subjects (most students do 7 or 8) done fo more.

But yes if you get the points for your first choice then it's yours (except for few courses that MIGHT require an interview) I can't give examples of those because I'm not sure but I am vaguely aware there are a few that interview.

Pre Covid the leaving cert is completely anonymous and independent. Teachers have no say or input into the exams and they are marked externally (somewhere up the country).

@MissMarks

Haven’t read all the posts but worth remembering the north and south are really quite different- class is very obvious in NI, particularly as there are grammar and secondary schools! And the Irish speaking schools in Belfast are most definitely not posh or elite or anyway comparable to a private school!

Hmmm I'm from NI, went to a grammar school, so did my sisters and some of my many cousins, but others went to high schools We were all the same class, whatever that was. The school we attended had nothing to do with class.

Just came on to say “notions”

I was about to do the same.
It always cracks me up that British people are astonished that people in Ireland actually come from a different country, which isn’t just England with a nicer accent.

To me Irish education could never be superior as almost all schools are catholic. It's abhorrent that parents are forced to indoctrinate their DC in state schools in this day and age. There isn't a single non/multi-denominational school in my entire county. I often hear plaudits tossed about for Irish education but I struggle to see how this could be so when DC are presented with Jesus as fact and I assume aren't properly instructed on evolution/science as it goes against the ethos of the school?

In regards to class though, social mobility is much greater to achieve in Ireland. I can also attest to a diversity of backgrounds in school. My friends were the children of solicitors and academics who lived in huge houses with housekeepers to factory workers and cleaners who lived on the roughest council estate in town. I remember I had to take a sociology module at an English university when I was 18 and I honestly had no idea what they were talking about! The British class system was a whole new world to me.

Social mobile is much *easier to achieve.

Burleycha- you may well have all been the same class but the vast majority of grammar schools in Northern Ireland are much more middle class than secondary schools- especially those with attached prep schools. A quick comparison for example of free school meal entitlement between a neighbouring secondary and a grammar demonstrates this- in the town I am from the grammar has less thank 1% and secondary more than 40%.

I often hear plaudits tossed about for Irish education but I struggle to see how this could be so when DC are presented with Jesus as fact and I assume aren't properly instructed on evolution/science as it goes against the ethos of the school?

Of course science and evolution are taught properly!
Did you go to school in Ireland yourself Badwill?

@freakyfairy

There's three levels for each paper. Foundation, ordinary and higher. Most do a mix of ordinary and higher. All sit the exams at the same time for the whole country

To get into university you have to Pass the ordinary level or higher level maths, english and Irish. (You used to have to pass a foreign language but they have changed that) then you must also have at least 6 subjects (most students do 7 or 8) done fo more.

But yes if you get the points for your first choice then it's yours (except for few courses that MIGHT require an interview) I can't give examples of those because I'm not sure but I am vaguely aware there are a few that interview.

Pre Covid the leaving cert is completely anonymous and independent. Teachers have no say or input into the exams and they are marked externally (somewhere up the country).

Just to correct some of this. Only the three core subjects are offered at three levels which are Irish, English and Maths. The rest are offered at Ordinary Level or Higher Level. To compare, a A1 at Ordinary level only equals a C3 (?) I think at Higher Level.

Points for Higher level subjects used to be

90-100% - A1 - 100 points
85-90% - A2 - 90 points
70-85% - B1- 85 points
etc etc. (or something similar)

For Ordinary level subjects
A1 - maybe 50/60 points?

Your top 6 subjects points-wise are all that can get you into 3rd level education. It's all done through an algorithm - purely exam based and none of the alleged copying of essays that was suggested.

So the points for medicine/veterinary will all be above 500 points - meaning that you'll need a lot of A's - all at Higher level. Trinity for anything has high points - Trinity Law, Trinity Medicine, Trinity Psychology - all requiring more or less 6 straight A's.

You get bonus points for Higher level Maths.

What Ireland is brilliant at exporting however is its engineering graduates. The points for those courses are less (more places, less demand). But we seem to produce a lot of exportable graduates! Who eventually move back, but they go and make their money abroad a bit for a while. We also export our teachers and our nurses!
We do hold on to our IT graduates and have a lot of Head Offices for Apple/Amazon/Facebook etc. based in Ireland (the IT Head Offices at least).

Ireland has some fantastic courses which make people quite employable.

There are alternative routes to success through trade apprenticeships for the more logically minded (can't think of how best to describe their brains as I don't have one lol).

It is extremely competitive for the 'elite' courses. Trinity Law, Law at UCD, Medicine at Trinity etc. Medicine in Galway may come in 10 points lower some years, so some study at Galway. I know somebody who did medicine there. Now a consultant. ;)

Badwill of course evolution and science are not taught in Irish Catholic schools, sure aren't we all descended from Adam and Eve?

There isn't a single non/multi-denominational school in my entire county.

Where da fook do ya live? The arsehole of Healy-Rae country or something?

I think Badwill needs to go to confession. I think she has committed blasphemy on here.

@Hatstrategicallydipped
Well, tut!
Kerry has a good few inter-denominational schools as it happens

The lady in question has also given her kids Irish names spelt in a ridiculous way (not the normal way the names are usually spelled). I get the impression it was to look good on the schools application form. She said all the kids in dc's class have Irish names so I'm thinking it's a subtle MC marker?!

What an obnoxious attitude you have. People are going back to the traditional spellings of Irish names now because we really don't care if british people can pronounce them. The UK spent long enough trying to eradicate the Irish language but never fully succeeded.

This with bells on. I hope more people send their children to gaeil scoils and give their children traditional Irish names. We are reclaiming what was taken.

[quote LizzieAnt]@Hatstrategicallydipped
Well, tut!
Kerry has a good few inter-denominational schools as it happens [/quote]
Apologies. (I'm a secret fans of the Healy-Raes!) I've no idea what county she lives in, in 2021 that doesn't have a single non-denominational school? Offaly? It's Carlow, isn't it? Gotta be Carlow.