How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

I've actually been sitting here thinking about how far the Irish Education system has come in the last few centuries. From schools being formed illegally in ditches and hedges to a system held in high regard throughout Europe. Its something for us to be very proud of.

I never thought about it before but it is true that the privately schooled tend to hang out together for life. I went to Trinity and I remember in my first week being stunned and amused by how the first or second question asked would be “what school did you go to?” That was how people classed each other. I went on to a profession that would have a high proportion of privately schooled people but now I think of it I’m friends with very few of them, although I get on well with quite a few - my friends throughout the years have all been from the country or the North. I don’t think that means the privately schooled are of a different class to me though - we have the same education and income.

[quote LadyfromtheBelleEpoque]@Danu2021 do you think the private would be better or is it the CofI community you want?

I remember hearing that lots of pupils came from farming backgrounds and the families didn’t want them isolated at home so sent them to boarding school.[/quote]
Well, I was happy with local state catholic schools for my own dc but I am not The Ambassador for all Cof I people so ... I can't really denounce private schools too much ykwim? Like I'm not religious but not anti-religious either.

I feel a bit of a loser (half joking) reading that private school types stick together throughout their lives. I have not got one single ''private school type'' friend who is in my life regularly. My friends are all either abroad! single parents like myself, went to state schools. So I mustn't have that shiny glossy posse private schoolness about me. Oh well. BUT, not to be boo hoo about my non glossiness, I think it's more that I didn't go to university and I ended up a single parent on benefits. That's never glossy! I work now. Any boyfriends I've ever had have not been private school types. That type doesn't like me!

@TaraRhu

Just to say Scotland is very different class wise too. I'm a 'middle class ' Scott but people down here have no concept of such a thing. The English class system is quite unique. For a start any sort of 'accent' puts you into a lower class. As a result I frequently get asked if I was the first generation of my family to go to uni.... er, no. Plus the difference between richest and poorest in England is enormous. It really polarises things.

I was going to say OP is conflating 'England' with UK. A lot of the things you've mentioned as being influencing the Irish perception of class will apply to Scotland and Wales too.

For example, neither Scotland nor Wales have any grammar schools, and only a tiny tiny number of private schools - there are lots of counties in Wales where there is only state school provision, no other option. I think this makes a big difference when 99.9% of children in a local area will go to the same school no matter how much their parents earn or how educated they are.

I never really had any idea of class markers or such until I went to university and mixed with English students - I was aware that some of my classmates had bigger/smaller houses than others but no real idea of the middle/working class signifiers. Even now I have a real mix of friends within the same group, some of whom are working in professional (traditionally MC) jobs and others as teaching assistants, retail assistant managers etc whereas I get the impression in England people tend to stick to their 'tribe.'

It's fascinating that even with our 'middling' level of education & our leaving cert A's only being the value of an A level C apparently, in 2019 Ireland came 4th for education in OECD rankings & 3rd out of 27 EU countries for literacy levels...

@caperplips it's not that it's worth a C. A leaving cert vs an A level is equivalent of 2/3 as an A level is done in more depth (apparently) we do less depth but a broader range. And I may be biased but I prefer that. The idea of giving up maths or English at age 16 astonishes me!!

I always thought A level was like 1st year in college level, say for history or English, a different level. The A=C doesn't compute and absolutely I loved the variety, that was my problem deciding what to do afterwards!

Hmm. I had a couple of boyfriends from fairly wealthy Irish families in the very early 80s. Both families had property in Ireland and lived principally in the UK. One went to Downside and one went to Ampleforth. I'd have said they and their friends and families were far more class conscious than the Young Farmers and Army boys I knew who went to Stowe, Harrow, Sherborne, etc! Can't make assumptions on such a narrow association I suppose and it was a long time ago. But unlike some of the earlier posters have said they really seemed to care about status.

Both families had property in Ireland and lived principally in the UK. One went to Downside and one went to Ampleforth.

Would they have identified as Irish though? I would doubt it.

@thevassal absolutely! Other parts of the U.K. are far more equal. I found the English students at uni really didn't know how to deal with the ones from other parts of the U.K. They couldn't 'place' us - especially the ones from the south. They were also really snobbish about ones with northern accents. It's ridiculous that people still think This way. No wonder we have a government made up of old Etonians who have no concept of what it's like to grow up without a silver spoon in your mouth.

The impression she gave was that it would look impressive on the application form for the Irish speaking school they wanted the dc to attend. She said herself she didn't really like it & as I said up thread her DH & herself freely admit they have no love of the language & haven't spoken it since secondary school. It seems to be "the fashionable" school in the area.. I googled an example - Orla perfect acceptable spelt the typical Irish way they would use Orfhlaith (not real names by the way)

In certain parts of the country sending kids to the Gaelscoil is a middle class marker and I wouldn’t be surprised that people think the spelling makes a difference.

But its not universal. Upper middle class Dubs from Catholic backgrounds don’t seem to go in for it so much. The Gonzaga/Belvedere types I’m talking about.

Like all class markers, is very nuanced when you get into it.

@RosesAndHellebores

Yes, I would agree. There is a hidden snobbery within those communities. I know that world and I have found a lot of snobbery and ‘pull’ going on there.

@TheKeatingFive

Where do you place Blackrock?

Same as Belvedere and co, though you could argue that Blackrock is world in itself.

@TheKeatingFive the Educate Together primary schools seem to be very popular atm, with socially ambitious parents, although they do go some way to solving the problem of some over-subscribed Catholic primary schools not accepting non-Catholics.

... even though, historically, most primary schools were run by the Catholic Church. They had some power, back in the day.

Yeah absolutely.

For those saying the Irish school system is superior, I am not sure it is, certainly not in the primary system. I say this as an Irish person, educated partly privately in Ireland with an English child in a catholic primary school here. From the day they started in Reception, they’re at school from 8.30-3.15. Breakfast clubs and after school clubs (til 6.30) to make it easier for parents. Lots of extra curricular activities, a foreign language and an instrument all from day 1. All books and materials are provided. Hot 3 course meals at lunch time rather than a soggy sandwich you’d make yourself. Trips abroad in Year 6. Holidays that are well staggered rather than 8-12 weeks in the summer.
I don’t think the Irish system is any worse than the UK system per se but of what I’ve seen of the UK system, I think it’s pretty fantastic and I think my daughter is getting a better education than I got in a fairly regarded school in South Dublin. I hear of people on mumsnet discussing the chronic underfunding of education in the UK. I haven’t seen evidence of that at all and my child goes to what I think is a phenomenal school and it costs us precisely nothing at point of use.
That said, I’ll absolutely be sending her to an independent secondary school whereas in Ireland I’d have no problem sending her off to Muckross or Coláiste Isogáin (sp) or the like.
I think there’s definitely a middle class in Ireland but it’s certainly more fluid. I know of a doctor married to a train driver and an investment banker married to a plumber and no one thinks that’s odd, re all members of the same golf club. Here in the UK, you wouldn’t see it as much. My mother in law is a snob (and not a big fan of the Irish, still not over the fact that her son didn’t marry a Home Counties woman) and she is absolutely obsessed with social class. Ridiculously so. Is embarrassed we don’t send our child to prep school. Tuts when I say Santa (and positively clutches pearls when I say Santie!). I just roll my eyes at her. She’s a specific breed. There are a lot of them though but luckily they’re a dying breed, I think.

You see a long day like that is not seen as a plus for very young children, just convenient for parents. So perhaps we have different priorities!.
Wildrose, I'll have to look that up about the funding, can't make sense of it.

m.independent.ie/life/family/learning/should-private-schools-still-receive-state-aid-26520115.html this would suggest your fact is wrong wildrose, Mt Anville is Catholic, as is Blackrock I think? Their subsidies are listed here.
I think the high level of burn out in first 5-10 years of English teachers says a lot about the system too. We don't tend to have that turnover here.

Lol@Santy! I didn't think a Dub would say that!

@SkylightAndChandelier

I can - whilst the classes are still 30 (mine are in a national school), there is a teacher and an assistant in every class

This is very rare in Irish schools ime. Well, not the 30+ bit but an assistant in each class isn't common.

I guess I really fell on my feet when we moved here then! Lucky they had space (children moving in and out of the school is very rare, I just happened to call at the right time). The school does have a high proportion of special needs students (covering a wide variety of needs from physical to behavioural to educational), perhaps the head is just extremely good at juggling staff, because children are regularly taken out in groups to work on their needs (always in groups so no child feels singled out) too, but it's very, very rare that there isn't two adults in a class from my experience (less so I suppose as you get to 4th class up). There's often 3 in my youngest's class because one of the children is having some difficulties and often has a one to one with them.

ROI schools have access to qualified teachers whose sole purpose is support of SEN (formerly resource teacher/learning support now all called Special Education Teacher). This is done mostly through targeted withdrawal. PISA ranks literacy here quite highly relative to other countries. Maths and Science are a bit lower if I recall correctly from memory.

• that school was definitely an outlier- most wouldn’t have a TA or support staff in class other than a SNA.

@harrietm1987

Oh and re trinity and the private school stats, a lot of posh brits send their children there. I worked with an OE who went there having missed out on an oxbridge place, so that could influence the numbers - it’s not just for Irish people.

AFAIK One of Boris Johnson’s daughters is a student at Trinity.

AFAIK One of Boris Johnson’s daughters is a student at Trinity.

Yep, she’s doing BESS I believe. My colleague’s son is in class with her. I gather she tries to lie as low as possible. 😆