How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

Or, a cynic would say, wildirishrose, that they're ensuring more government funded capitation grants!!

Just confirmed that Catholic fee-paying schools don't get capitation grants apparently. Protestant fee-paying ones do. I didn't realise this myself!

Oh it definitely exists. It is different though.

Firstly, the established aristocracy in Ireland (ROI) is tiny. It barely exists in fact, so that’s one big chunk taken out.

Secondly, there isn’t a huge amount of long established, generational wealth. This, along with a pretty good education system and reasonable uni costs makes social mobility much more possible.

Thirdly, there is a lot more social mixing across classes. This was the biggest different I noticed when living in the U.K.

Having said that, I am in south Dublin and most of my circle are privately school/trinity educated. There are clear class differences between those in rural towns/north inner city.

Oh and the other thing is that farmers are their own separate social class here when it comes to official classification. That says a lot about their importance in the country.

@partyatthepalace

is that Irish education is more middling - without the highs and lows of the UK.

I think that is a good description.

I also agree that due to size/agrarian nature vs ind revolution, the influence of Commonwealth cultures and the crown/c of E link they do not compare evenly. That’s not a slight to Ireland rather the acknowledgment that it has a unique history that it has had to deal with (Church, language, immigration, colonial past, land issues).

The other thing to say is that private schools are very good value for money in Ireland compared to U.K., so not totally out of reach for people.

And many of them were set up primarily to support minority religions, which explains how many Protestant ones are out there compared to prevalence in population.

@Notimeforaname

I read Mumsnet sometimes with my mouth dropping open - UK people are obsessed with class and being Middle Class. I actually don't think it's like that anywhere else

I feel the same. It seems like its everywhere here. Even if just mentioned for a second on a thread...its usually always there. Very strange to me.

I am nearly 60 and in real life I don't think I I've ever heard anyone mention it.

Mumsnet is obsessed with it!

@TheKeatingFive

The other thing to say is that private schools are very good value for money in Ireland compared to U.K., so not totally out of reach for people.

And many of them were set up primarily to support minority religions, which explains how many Protestant ones are out there compared to prevalence in population.

Memories of the John Coolahan book on Irish education are flooding back!!

I find it interesting that a significant number of second-level schools in Ireland began as private schools, until Donagh O'Malley overhauled the system. There was always the VEC, but those schools catered for students who wanted a vocational education, rather than those who wished to go on to third level.

I seem to remember that John Charles McQuaid (Catholic Archbishop of Dublin) banned Catholics from going to TCD at one point?

I seem to remember that John Charles McQuaid (Catholic Archbishop of Dublin) banned Catholics from going to TCD at one point?

Yes absolutely. My FIL (product of a mixed marriage) had to apply for a special dispensation.

Mind you, when I went to Trinity twenty years ago there were plenty of catholics.

@WildIrishRose1 thinks makes some people angry but from a church of ireland perspective it is harder to find a school that will take your child. I applied to Temple Carrig. No. I applied to Newpark. No. I can't afford the private school I went to myself.

Luckily the local catholic school (free) took my dc1 but at one point I was worried. Same story again for my second DC. If I had a bit more money I would have gone down the private school route I'm sure, but, I don't and they're both in good (state) schools.

It wouldn't break my heart if they did away with private schools but I can see why they exist.

If they did away with them tomorrow the govt would have to fully fund (as opposed to partially fund) 17 more schools? I think. I may not be understanding this correctly.

@Danu2021 do you think the private would be better or is it the CofI community you want?

I remember hearing that lots of pupils came from farming backgrounds and the families didn’t want them isolated at home so sent them to boarding school.

Really wildrose? I'm surprised, I wonder why they don't get tax relief/funding for their tax paying agents like every other school?! That's not publicised. Who is making up the massive shortfall?

Interesting thread. My experience v closely mirrors @TeaEgg's.
I grew up in the Midlands in an economically depressed town, from a working class background. I attended a regular national school & the only girls secondary in town (convent). There were 5 classes of approx 25 each in my year & a mere handful of us from the top stream made it to university. Lots went on to work in areas like hairdressing, nursing, care work, catering, army (non officer), supermarkets, shops & factories.
Many had children v young.
I was the 1st in my family to go to university & I went to Trinity to do an 'elite' course with 15 places allocated per year at that time (90's)
I came from a Catholic, provincial, non farming, non private education background. I had not had access to expensive hobbies - sailing, horse riding etc
But for me the absolute wonder & joy of bring in TCD was getting to mix with the most diverse group of people - it blew my mind! There were students I knew from Anglo aristocracy, from famous theatrical families to other 'country kids' like me to some from v deprived inner city areas who were on scholarships. And we were all there on our own merit because we earned the points to be there.
I'm sure I was marked as being from the background I was from by those who cared about such things but I was largely unaware of it.
I thew myself into life there & loved it. I did a post grad in another Irish university & was pretty shocked by how strict the social parameters were & how readily people wanted to place you in one category or another. I was genuinely surprised as TCD had more of a reputation for being 'snooty' but my direct experience was the very opposite.

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

Really wildrose? I'm surprised, I wonder why they don't get tax relief/funding for their tax paying agents like every other school?! That's not publicised. Who is making up the massive shortfall?

Don't know; I'll have to explore further, as that is the extent of my knowledge on this matter. It could have changed in recent times...

I think each society has different issues and they are not directly comparable. I would note though that it’s not like private schools are actually all that common in the UK - over 90% of pupils go to state schools.

One thing I do have issues with in Ireland is I find it a bit intolerant to minorities. I say that as an ethnic minority with close family in Ireland. Of course there is racism everywhere but I do think as a general statement, the UK is more advanced in such matters.

@FoodieToo

I find the way you talk about 'class' on here really strange . People just don't do that in Ireland. You would be laughed at ! In fact when I read threads on here such as 'what class am I if I shop in M and S ?' etc. I am always waiting for someone to come along and take the piss totally but it doesn't happen !!

Brits never say in real life what people write on here. It's an anonymous forum where people post what they would never say to friends or family. Except for ridiculing very upper class people, or saying that's a bit 'chavvy'.

Private secondary schools in Ireland get some funding from the state.
Private primary schools in Ireland get no funding from the state.

There is definitely snobbery in Dublin
@CP26 put it so well in her post at 17.00
The private school educated tend to stick together throughout their life.

However there is also a meritocracy and I think Donogh O' Malley, the Minister for Education and his government at the time, along with the civil servants involved did the Irish a great service when they introduced free secondary education for all.
It has made such a huge difference re equality.

Interesting thread, however id just lije ti gently point out that most posters are referring to the British sytem or the UK system when its not universal, the Scottish system has always been seperate and is much more like the Irish system than the English IMO, no A-levels for a start and far fewer private schools, no testing in primary schools, i could go on. Unfortunately its not as good as it once was, its been tinkered with & dumbed down, i think but that's a whole other thread..

Sorry about typos, didn't have my glasses on.

@tttigress

Do you actually have any figures on the Irish private school situation? I don't but the Irish professionals I know all attended private schools, so I would have thought it is fairly wide spread.

Did a bit of googling, and apparently 30% of Trinity College Dublin's intake is from a private school background: www.universitytimes.ie/2020/01/fee-paying-students-are-three-times-more-likely-to-attend-top-universities/

So I doubt Irish state schools are utopian.

Are grind schools classified as private schools in this though? I went to Trinity and there would have been lots of students in the higher points courses that went to a grind school for 6th year.

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque
I found it strange tbh, as I went to a very posh school in a very posh part of London and have no real accent....

I'm sorry, I know this is off the point, but I'm genuinely curious how anyone could think they have no accent?
Especially when they're living and working in another country...

@LizzieAnt

Sorry, that was lazy of me - I meant I don’t really have a Cockney accent.

Ah, okay then