How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

Yes, Irish schools categorically do not have such a thing as a Teaching Assistant, however, any student requiring extra assistance will have a dedicated SNA (Special Needs Assistant).

Not exactly. It used to be that individual students were granted a certain amount of SNA hours. Now the model has changed so that schools get an allocation of SNA hours to be deployed among students as they see fit. Schools can appeal if they don't have enough SNA hours to meet their needs.

Was supposed to start this year but due to Covid they've pushed it back a year. I hate it personally, it's a cheap money saving move from the Government.

But one middle class group that stays strong is the Church of Ireland farming family.

Ye, but they're not really Irish are they?

But one middle class group that stays strong is the Church of Ireland farming family.

And that group is actually considered upper class on all fronts.

@Hatstrategicallydipped

But one middle class group that stays strong is the Church of Ireland farming family.

Ye, but they're not really Irish are they?

Seriously ?

In NI anyway there are only a few private schools and they’re for rich kids who can’t pass the transfer test. Beckett famously referred to one of them as for the cream of Ulster - rich and thick. The fees though are tiny compared to the English private schools.

Having lived in NI, ROI and the UK I think that the differences in education have a massive impact on the influence of class later in life. In the UK a private education can buy you entry to certain social circles, universities and then careers. I was born in NI in a working class area to a single mother on benefits but went to a top grammar school, top university and now work in an elite profession. Much, much more difficult for someone with my background to do this in England say.

Also agree that the Irish in general look down on people with “notions”, especially those who lose the run of themselves!

I wouldn't have thought that many people today would rule out Trinity because many, many years ago it was protestant. People clever enough to get in aren't that stupid! As we all know, you get in if you have the POINTS for the course you choose. My daughter has to have her CAO in by 1/2 and she has courses for both universities down, in order of how much she would like to do the courses. She would like to go to Trinity but UCD is nearby.

Oh and re trinity and the private school stats, a lot of posh brits send their children there. I worked with an OE who went there having missed out on an oxbridge place, so that could influence the numbers - it’s not just for Irish people.

@Hatstrategicallydipped yes of course they are Irish.

I have read this whole thread and have been hesitant to post but here goes...

I think people are deluded to think class is not a concern in Ireland. I actually find it a far more class obsessed place than London where I grew up. In the UK we have acknowledged the role class plays in achieving success whereas in Ireland I find that (as someone astutely pointed out) your awareness/lack of awareness depends on your own position.

I worked in a CofI private boarding school. I like this

‘girls study nursing, have a few wild years and then marry well, the boys go to Agricultural College and take over the farm.’

and think they have it sussed

A lovely community who on the whole made me feel very welcome. I really liked the set up of the school and the pupils were great. There was a strong Christian presence there which obv is not for everyone.

I also worked as an assistant examiner for the state exams and in order to qualify had to sit a specialist exam on the Irish education system (there is a very good book I will try and link to for anyone who wants it).

I really think it is important to emphasise that in Ireland the whole country will take the same exam for Jc/lc but in the UK we have different exam boards (and I think trad they have differed quite significantly). I don’t think the impact of this should be underestimated.

I know that the common narrative around education is that Irish is best. Tbh, I am sick of this. I don’t think we compare like with like as there are so many good UK institutions that exist outside of the cities that few in the Irish communities really experience. The comparison has been shaped imv, on behaviour and criticisms Irish in the 80s had over their qualifications not been deemed equal in the UK.

It is complex but I have to say that most Irish I speak to privately criticise the rote nature of a system exceptionally easy to game, grinds and /paying for sharing essays are behind a lot the grade achievement, I think and finally qualification produced a table comparing exams -a leaving cert grade ‘A’ is equivalent to a ‘C’ at A’level - the difference is how broad the lc is with students having to study 6 subjects 16-18. And subjects you might not find complement your abilities such as languages (Eng/Irish) when you are arty or maths-/science inclined.

@WildIrishRose1 however, this is what has really pissed me off. OP is trying to add to her existing knowledge of education and comparing it to the one she knows - I really hate this aggressive sniping towards anyone English who discusses something Irish from anything other than an Irish perspective. It is alarmingly ignorant.

@FoodieToo

I find the way you talk about 'class' on here really strange . People just don't do that in Ireland. You would be laughed at ! In fact when I read threads on here such as 'what class am I if I shop in M and S ?' etc. I am always waiting for someone to come along and take the piss totally but it doesn't happen !!

Class may not be discussed in public, but it is definitely a thing in Ireland, it's just unspoken.

I went to a south Dublin private school. There was definite exclusivity and snobbery - pretty much everyone continued to mix predominantly with other private school kids once we got to University and throughout our 20’s. Now in our 30’s many of us are married to someone else who went to private school. That said I don’t think anyone really thought about it in terms of ‘class’ in the way they do in the UK but more to do with American style status markers like money, looks, prospects. Some families had judges and barristers going back generations whereas others were first generation wealthy - it didn’t really matter.

I think there’s far more social mobility and fluidity in Ireland in general. I suppose as we were under British rule for so long an Irish ‘upper’ class didn’t really develop in the same way?

@WildIrishRose1 however, this is what has really pissed me off. OP is trying to add to her existing knowledge of education and comparing it to the one she knows - I really hate this aggressive sniping towards anyone English who discusses something Irish from anything other than an Irish perspective. It is alarmingly ignorant.

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. What I find ignorant, however, is the manner in which Ireland is viewed as an adjunct to Britain. My comment wasn't meant to be passive aggressive or sniping; I was quite clear in my view.

I went to TCD. Try telling anyone who came through the Trinity Access Programme that Ireland doesn't have a class system. Try going to college debating with a North Dublin accent, and see how people react...

@tttigress

Do you actually have any figures on the Irish private school situation? I don't but the Irish professionals I know all attended private schools, so I would have thought it is fairly wide spread.

Did a bit of googling, and apparently 30% of Trinity College Dublin's intake is from a private school background: www.universitytimes.ie/2020/01/fee-paying-students-are-three-times-more-likely-to-attend-top-universities/

So I doubt Irish state schools are utopian.

There are a reasonable number of private schools in Dublin but very few elsewhere in the country. However, there are grinds schools where students can do the senior cycle (A Level equivalent in the cities). Some students do the full senior cycle there but a lot also just repeat the leaving cert if they don't get the uni course they want.

Overall, the public system is very good and seems better than the english one from what I have heard from friends.

So I doubt Irish state schools are utopian. Meow.

Huh?!? There are loads of private schools in Ireland, but most if not all get state funding like state schools, and just charge fees on top so it’s much much cheaper for parents.

There is absolutely a middle class in Ireland, and in Dublin at least a significant portion of people are very aware of status re houses, cars, holidays etc (no different to UK.)

It’s a much smaller and significantly less well off country than the UK overall, and was obviously much poorer than it is now in the recent past, so it’s true the different levels of ‘MC’ (both in terms of money and varied tribes) aren’t as great.

Schooling standards I don’t have personal experience of, but what colleagues who’ve moved their kids from UK to Ireland or vv have said is that Irish education is more middling - without the highs and lows of the UK.

I love Ireland and work there a lot and have done for years to be clear, but your sis in law is throwing a rosy glow there.

@WildIrishRose1

Ireland is viewed as an adjunct to Britain- no she wasn’t -shoe was simply using her own knowledge of the UK system as a base to assess another system - we all do that.

Are you seriously telling me that you think you don’t?

@ganivat

Although the North side includes Clontarf and Glasnevin, too?

I agree though - I imagine the travelling community have a very tough time due to the snobbery but I also imagine that a lot of that is across the class divide - not just the u/m clad.

I found it strange tbh, as I went to a very posh school in a very posh part of London and have no real accent and I think because of that many Irish couldn’t place me. I certainly experienced people assuming I was richer than I am and less privileged than I am - one interview they looked at me as though I couldn’t possibly understand their school (rural comp) - I interview for a South Dublin private and I got the feeling they thought I was a wrong for them.

"I also worked as an assistant examiner for the state exams and in order to qualify had to sit a specialist exam on the Irish education system".

I too have worked as as Assistant Examiner. When we studied for the H.Dip in Ed (as was then), the equivalent of a PGCE, all teaching students had to study the history of the Irish Educational System, ad part of the course. As I recall, I didn't have to re-sit this element when I applied for assistant examiner, as I had the H.Dip.

I agree with a PP that there is much more social fluidity in Ireland. Status is generally based on money, political power, etc; which I believe is different from the British Class system, being, as it is, a Monarchy?

I would also like to point out that most, if not all, fee/paying schools here have scholarship programs. I believe one school has nearly 25% of its intake given over to their access program? (I have to check that number) There may be some way to go yet, but at least they are trying to narrow the gap.

Oh ganivet, something people can be complete shits, no doubt. That type of crap is an example of lack of class IMHO. It reminds me of a friend teaching in Mt Anville that got awful abuse from the girls because of her train tracks and because they 'couldn't understand' her accent. I don't even view that as a class system more the existence of total idiots. I must say the families I knew in my old private school were absolutely lovely and v deferential to us teachers.

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque

"Are you seriously telling me that you think you don’t?"

No. I'm Irish.

Or, a cynic would say, wildirishrose, that they're ensuring more government funded capitation grants!!

@Norfolker

The lady in question has also given her kids Irish names spelt in a ridiculous way (not the normal way the names are usually spelled). I get the impression it was to look good on the schools application form. She said all the kids in dc's class have Irish names so I'm thinking it's a subtle MC marker?!

What an obnoxious attitude you have. People are going back to the traditional spellings of Irish names now because we really don't care if british people can pronounce them. The UK spent long enough trying to eradicate the Irish language but never fully succeeded.

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

Or, a cynic would say, wildirishrose, that they're ensuring more government funded capitation grants!!

Interesting point, but does the capitation grant cover the cost of a scholarship? The school I'm thinking of can fill its places many times over with fee-paying students.

Ah well that's different. I know some had the light bulb of upping the scholarship nos. ATO increase numbers and therefore funding overall. Not so tho if they could have feepayers instead.

@ganivet

I went to TCD. Try telling anyone who came through the Trinity Access Programme that Ireland doesn't have a class system. Try going to college debating with a North Dublin accent, and see how people react...

And I think a lot of the people who are insistent on class being a 'thing' and I don't think anyone has claimed Ireland is a classless utopia, just that poverty and inequality are less enmeshed with class shibboleths and markers than in the UK are Dublin-based and thinking primarily of Dublin, which can be spectacularly inward-looking.

My parents are a retired binman and a hospital cleaner, and I went to the local parish school in a traditionally working-class area for both primary and secondary, then on to university first one in my family to stay at school past fourteen and I was far from the only working-class accent in tutorials or at the debating society, or the only one who had barely left my county and not the country before then. My fees were paid in full and I got a maintenance grant, and won several scholarships. I'm sure some people staff and students thought I was a talking pig, but I certainly didn't wander around thinking I was some kind of prole anomaly.