How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

Growing up in the 80's, there were two primaries in our town. The 'normal' Catholic one and the Protestant school (a tiny school). I don't know whether the Protestant school was funded by the state or not?

Not for years, @HavelockVetinari. The requirement to get special permission from your bishop if you were a Catholic who wanted to attend was lifted in, I think, 1970.

UCD was originally the Catholic University of Ireland, then the Royal University of Ireland, then became UCD right at the start of the 20thc -- now it's a college of the National University of Ireland, and what's what awards you your degree, same as if you were at UCC, NUIG etc.

Cardinal Newman was UCD president, wasn the arts block called after him? But as you say not relevant at all now. Mater Dei is the college for secondary teachers of religion I think. Maynooth and All Hallows both lovely campuses. Marino, St Pat's, all have Catholic roots also.

The other thing I think that I notice here is that rurally you couldn't really tell by size of house what "class" (for want of a better word) someone is.
On my road I Have some quite large houses...and some smaller cottages, bungalows etc. One of the larger ones was built by a postman and his wife who works part time in retail. It's feckin huge...🤣 they also have 3 dc.
One of the cottages (it is an old gate lodge and FAB) is owned by a doctor.
A new large house (5bed) across from me was built and lived in by two teachers- they have 4 dc.

Just saying...🤣

@scubadub

I'll put it to you this way OP. I went to an average state secondary in Ireland- Out of my close friends we have 3 primary teachers (a well paid job here) 2 nurses A psychiatrist A CEO Of an international company A dog groomer- own business A microbiologist An orthopaedic surgeon A barrister

The rest of my year are similar-
A lot of nurses and teachers- most work abroad though - UAE etc
A few went into business and did really well in Dublin/London
A lot went into science degrees- environmental, pharmacy etc
One is in media here in Ireland- well enough known.
And business was a popular choice for my year too...

I know this mostly through word of mouth(that's the Irish for ya 🤣)...Facebook etc

Your own stats demonstrate that your school was far from average! Unless you're suggesting that most Irish school pupils will go on to be barristers and suchlike, with practically no-one left to empty the bins, ort work in retail, care, gardening, transport...etc.?

Your stats indicate the demographic of students attending the school (middle class, with engaged, interested parents) rather than anything spectacularly different about Irish education.

@HavelockVetinari not at all...there's a good portion that didn't go to uni. Worked in retail, local factories etc. we had three pregnancies in 6th year too...I'm just saying that we had a good standard.

I worked with a few English people over the years that have been very "class aware". One moved house, away from the countryside because the local primary school had few other children with "professional parents" and the children did not have anyone appropriate to play with.
My children had best friends who were from single parent houses to millionaires... and everything in between. They all mucked about together to the foitball club, youth club and later to the teenage discos together. Just because so-and-so's patents couldn't afford a car didn't make them any different from so-and-so whos parents had a helicopter.

I was also involved in a sport where participants & organisers ranged from multi-millionaires to the long term unemployed. Everybody mixed, knew each other and would be at the same breakfast table or in the bar at the end. Nobody had notions of themselves (well 99.9% of the times )!

Isn't UCD Catholic and Trinity Protestant? I was considering studying in Ireland, and my Irish relatives were a bit outraged I was considering Trinity (we're all Catholic)!

It used to be thought of that way yes but that's a bit outdated now. Most people just go wherever they like. I'd say the biggest snobbery now is universities vs ITs.

I'm finding it very hard not to say 'Do you know who would have gone to a very disadvantaged school?' followed by surprising celebrity name

I think that people who believe that class isn't a thing in Ireland grew up fairly comfortably off. I'm from a large working class family where poverty was a real issue. I was definitely excluded from certain parties, friendship groups etc. particularly in primary school due to where I lived. Not such an issue in secondary school when parents have less say in friendships.
It was a small town with a lot of social deprivation. The secondary schools there are not turning out multiple nurses with a sprinkling of doctors, psychiatrists and CEOs every year.
I went to university in the early 90s and definitely felt out of my league somewhat, mainly due to the lack of experiences and extra curricular stuff that most other people had. I was definitely lacking a certain confidence.

@Norfolker

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers. She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting. YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets. YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

What a bizarre and insulting post. We are not a mere extension of an outmoded British class system.

I can - whilst the classes are still 30 (mine are in a national school), there is a teacher and an assistant in every class

This is very rare in Irish schools ime. Well, not the 30+ bit but an assistant in each class isn't common.

I guess I really fell on my feet when we moved here then! Lucky they had space (children moving in and out of the school is very rare, I just happened to call at the right time). The school does have a high proportion of special needs students (covering a wide variety of needs from physical to behavioural to educational), perhaps the head is just extremely good at juggling staff, because children are regularly taken out in groups to work on their needs (always in groups so no child feels singled out) too, but it's very, very rare that there isn't two adults in a class from my experience (less so I suppose as you get to 4th class up). There's often 3 in my youngest's class because one of the children is having some difficulties and often has a one to one with them.

I have always thought that class matters less in Ireland because we are (mostly) all a generation or two removed from dirt poor farmers! It's hard to get notions about yourself when you have your granny giving you the look of "it's far from hummus you were reared".

@SkylightAndChandelier I think the pp who said that it's probably an SNA was right. SNAs are usually only meant to work with their individual child - maybe a group if they're supporting more than one - but many will help as needed around the class. A good SNA is worth their weight in gold.

Anyway, sounds like a good school!

@bigeegit

I have always thought that class matters less in Ireland because we are (mostly) all a generation or two removed from dirt poor farmers! It's hard to get notions about yourself when you have your granny giving you the look of "it's far from hummus you were reared".

You've probably seen this ya bigeegit ya, but I love this little snippet from our very own Tommy on the Irish and money.

In my case my grandfather was a plumber and my grandmother stayed at home. Yet they had a nanny and all 7 children went to private Inc boarding school for the girls. Find it hard to get my head around that.

I've only known class to be an issue on MN!

[quote SionnachRua]@SkylightAndChandelier I think the pp who said that it's probably an SNA was right. SNAs are usually only meant to work with their individual child - maybe a group if they're supporting more than one - but many will help as needed around the class. A good SNA is worth their weight in gold.

Anyway, sounds like a good school![/quote]
Yes, Irish schools categorically do not have such a thing as a Teaching Assistant, however, any student requiring extra assistance will have a dedicated SNA (Special Needs Assistant).

Tbf Trinity college is considered fairly elite, so isn't necessarily a good example. My dc go/went to UCD and consider Trinity as being very posh.
And every place I've worked or the two universities I went to didn't rate Trinity at all, they're all about theory and very little practical. A lot just end up lecturing there apparently! We're told here we have ome of the best education systems but I dont know, it's apples and nd oranges isnt it? We do a lot more subjects for our final exams than you do in Britain so I dont know if you have a better education as more specific. As for class, I know a fair few well off people but you wouldn't know it the way I guess you might in Britain?( again tv and media might be taunting my image of what happens there!!!!)

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

In my case my grandfather was a plumber and my grandmother stayed at home. Yet they had a nanny and all 7 children went to private Inc boarding school for the girls. Find it hard to get my head around that.

One of my cousins is a plumber and rolling in it.

Tainting and I apologise for all the grammar issues, my hands are so cold I can't type properly!!

I think it’s very difficult to compare as in my experience people in Ireland don’t tend to define themselves or others so much by class, at least not in the way that people in the UK tend to.

It’s not so much that class doesn’t exist but in Ireland any discussion of “middle class” in the media or politics is around income and income disparity whereas in the UK there seem to be all kinds of (often bloody ridiculous) middle class markers that appear to be very important to people, yet income isn’t necessarily one of those markers.

There’s certainly snobbery and “keeping up with the Joneses” in Ireland of course as well as poverty and social issues so it’s not some kind of utopia but people don’t have the seemingly firmly held views that WC = this and MC = that which you see so much of on MN.

@scubadub

The other thing I think that I notice here is that rurally you couldn't really tell by size of house what "class" (for want of a better word) someone is. On my road I Have some quite large houses...and some smaller cottages, bungalows etc. One of the larger ones was built by a postman and his wife who works part time in retail. It's feckin huge...🤣 they also have 3 dc. One of the cottages (it is an old gate lodge and FAB) is owned by a doctor. A new large house (5bed) across from me was built and lived in by two teachers- they have 4 dc.

Just saying...🤣

Yes and a lot of the bigger newer houses have been built by someone who was left a field by their parents (often farmers if they're handing down land) and are able to direct a self build because they're a tradesman of some description. They wouldn't fit into the English middle classes but they've certainly got the means for the lifestyle if they wanted to choose it.

I’m English (nominally Protestant family) but I spent age 11-22 in Ireland. I went to the local State Catholic all girls secondary and TCD. I left Ireland in 1990 but still keep up with friends who have turned out to be graduate professionals (one TV celebrity!), a Maths professor, teachers, nurses, shop assistants and SAHMs.

There have been huge social changes since then, with the Green Tiger economy and a general increase in living standards. The Catholic Church has lost so much influence and Ireland is a European country in a way the UK never was.

But one middle class group that stays strong is the Church of Ireland farming family. They send their children to private secondary schools, where they meet more of their own kind. The girls study nursing, have a few wild years and then marry well, the boys go to Agricultural College and take over the farm. Thus perpetuating the line. Plenty of “mixed marriages now, of course. Rugby, cricket, canoeing clubs are the place to find them at play.

@Norfolker

The lady in question has also given her kids Irish names spelt in a ridiculous way (not the normal way the names are usually spelled). I get the impression it was to look good on the schools application form. She said all the kids in dc's class have Irish names so I'm thinking it's a subtle MC marker?!

Not the way they're usually spelled in England you mean?! That doesn't mean the spelling is ridiculous.