How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

I agree no talk of class bar someone recently bleating on about being working class vs the elite/middle class attitude. Again, generally people would tell him to cop on for himself!

I've lived in both Scotland and Ireland. The people in Ireland always made a big deal of the Irish being 'different' somehow, or making out everything was so 'Irish'. Personally, I noticed no difference between home and Scotland!

*home and Ireland that should read!

There are a few different elites here.

It's not as straightforward as aristocrats at the top and proles at the bottom (being flippant here). There are different categories of people, all middle class in my opinion.

For example, a church of Ireland middle class especially if they have the money to send their children to a private school.

Then there is a middle class which is very Established. ie, great grandchildren of Eamon de Valera or some such deeply entrenched entwinement with IRELAND, grandchildren of of other political families. Known by all and sundry for miles around as The ..........Linehans (example) Even people whose grandparents and parents knew how to ''work'' the civil service before about 1985. I don't mean clerical officers.

There is also a more straightforward middle class which is just linked obviously to how well they've done for themselves through their professions or businesses.

There is a catholic middle class that benefits from being RESPECTABLE, white, irish and going back a few generations. Not just the blackrock college / MOUNTanville brigade but also, did your Mother/father go to this normal state catholic school? good, then you're on the A waiting list for a very good state education, unlike the foreigners who haven't a chance. Thank you good bye!

I think the whole gaelgoir thing is a way of claiming a new middle class ground. We are going to send our children to all irish schools so that they get a good leg up and high points and are off to a flying start.

So there's a lot more variance in the middle classes in Ireland.

There are boxes that people can put you in but it's not the only box with the label middle class so people aren't walking around terrified that they said the word mantlepiece in public.

And stuff like randomly hating Bono is a great national unifier.

I've just googled 'Class system England' and 'Class system Ireland'.

The former has an entire wiki page devoted to the topic

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Kingdom

Just a few articles came up for the latter search.

That should tell you all you need to know really.

There's perhaps more fluidity in Ireland. Less disparity too perhaps.

'Class' is really only referred to by politicians and within marketing firms in Ireland whereas Mumsnet appears to be obsessed with the notion.

Someone progressing through the ranks, could be either seen to be 'doing well for himself' or to 'have notions' or 'We're not good enough for him now' or to have 'his head up his arse' or to be 'above himself' depending on who you're talking to in Ireland.

I think that Irish people know only too well that you can land on your arse fairly lively - history tells us that, so we're never too comfortable with new found wealth.

I was shocked to discover (coming from a poor background) that my family was considered 'Upper Class' for marketing purposes because we were farmers lol. I'm not quite sure that they had my father in mind when they made up those divisions! I suspect the norm in that class would be Protestant land owners, a legacy from England's land ownership in Ireland. But they do exist and generally mingle with the commoners as well as having their own circle too I suppose.

@TerribleCustomerCervix

I have a very D4 Friend, complete with the faux-American accent.

She’s absolutely lovely, and very conscious of how lucky she is. She hates her accent and was looking at elocution lessons to try and sound more Dub as she feels very out of place when hanging about with her DP’s friends from the slums of Howth 😂

I think generally both north and south, people aren’t very bothered about the material things that come along with having more disposable income. We only got a Nando’s in the last decade ffs.

It's not ''faux'' though. It's real.

I think it's more relaxed here. I feel middle class here but I don't care if others disagree, i"m not proving it or disapproving it.

I felt I was up in the dock a bit in the UK. Crap like saying Santa not Father Christmas can put you in a box in the UK but people in Ireland aren't as quick to put you in a box I think/

so people aren't walking around terrified that they said the word mantlepiece in public
🤣🤣thanks for this. Really made me laugh 🤣

For example, a church of Ireland middle class especially if they have the money to send their children to a private school.

Agreed, but worth saying that this is a tiny percentage of the population. The 2016 census put the entire Protestant population as 4.2 percent of the population, and that's including Methodists and Presbyterians.

And I can certainly also think of very much non-wealthy C of Ireland farmers in the part of the county my mother is from who, judging by their surnames, probably converted at some point (and are often still referred to as Soupers out of their hearing...)

@TeaEgg

And stuff like randomly hating Bono is a great national unifier.

ha ha, my cousin's cousin on their other side

It's not ''faux'' though. It's real.

It is in Lucan!

No I don't think Irish people put you in boxes for supposed class defining comments lol. And, without knowing a huge amount about the English system, I think there's more mixing of classes maybe in Ireland without it being a thing at all.

@TeaEgg there is variance though. It's not one box ''Middle Class''.

I did have elocution lessons when I was young.

When I was in the UK, a friend of mine told me I had a strong Irish accent. I had to bite my tongue!

Can anyone say in what way the schools are better in ROI? Sounds interesting!

@Steelasprey

The Irish middle classes have expanded considerably in the past few decades and although we have relatively more social mobility than UK (English) society there are still obvious markers of class and social status. Our car registrations show exactly how ‘well you’re doing’. There are huge distinctions between people from working class backgrounds who have ‘done well for themselves’ and those from the established professional/ business classes. There is a lot of snobbery and inverted snobbery in the country with accents/ addresses/ cars used to judge- very similar to the UK. Private schools in Ireland are all about making/ maintaining connections and there’s no justification for them in terms of quality of education. People without the cash for fees send their children to Irish-speaking schools if they want to emulate the exclusivity of private schools. Our society is still very stratified and many are disenfranchised- we treat our traveling community, immigrants and working poor really badly. The idea of ‘notions’ is a hangover from colonial/ church oppression- we can’t ever be seen to aspire beyond our station in life. It’s really funny at times to see pretension and vulgarity ridiculed, but it is not equally applied.

That's funny you should mention the Irish speaking schools. The lady is was speaking about has her kids in one, they had their names down from birth Both her & her DH laugh about the fact that neither of them speak the native language but love the school.. I wouldn't be able to cope not knowing the language. They're very brave!

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

No I don't think Irish people put you in boxes for supposed class defining comments lol. And, without knowing a huge amount about the English system, I think there's more mixing of classes maybe in Ireland without it being a thing at all.

yes, less indignation at rising through the ranks, far less ''know your place''

Interesting.

I am married to a man who is of the remnants of the Anglo Irish ‘class’. Very snobby relatives who consider themselves above the ordinary. Their community of seem to like displays of wealth, posh cars, boats, horses, hunting, holiday homes etc.

Most of my kids cousins went to private school. Probably worse in many respects to the state schools my kids attended in the UK. e.g. emphasis on sports and not arts, very white and not diverse.

I used to go out with someone who was a typical Dublin 4. Reminds me in hindsight of the Ross O’Carroll Kelly books. Fluent in Irish, public school, Trinity, profession etc. But saw himself as downtrodden Irish.

I grew up across the road from a very very very wealthy farmer. Was in the same class in school as one of the sons - though they kept to themselves to be honest. Anyway, said son tragically died a number of years ago and Michael O'Leary (of Ryanair notoriety) and Albert Reynolds (former Taoiseach) were at the funeral! We were definitely aware that they were in a different 'class' to us growing up.

That's funny you should mention the Irish speaking schools. The lady is was speaking about has her kids in one, they had their names down from birth
Both her & her DH laugh about the fact that neither of them speak the native language but love the school.. I wouldn't be able to cope not knowing the language. They're very brave!

Yes this is my sister. Had her kids names down from the birth and even had the children baptised despite not believing in god or having any faith (at the time it was a requirement to get into an irish school. I dont think this is the case anymore though). But it was all for 'the look' the school is miles away.
They are in long hours wrap around care and get home very late because of the distance. It makes life so difficult for them but sure...they look the part,dont they?

Not so drastically different.

Ireland is a more unequal place than, say, the Scandinavian countries, but not as bad as the UK, nowhere near as bad as say the USA.

The Trinity College/30% privately educated stat referrenced above is probably as good a yardstick as any - the [very crudely] Irish of Oxbridge is about 70% state educated, whereas, in the UK, Oxbridge is about 60% state educated.

And it's not to deny that appalling poverty and inequality still absolutely exist in Ireland, even now that it ranks so high on the UN Development Index, which ranks countries on life expectancy, income, education, literacy etc -- it's just that this poverty and inequality has a more nebulous relationship to social class as it is understood in the UK.

One of the good things about Ireland is that schools are more socially mixed and generally offer a good education, rather than middle-class children being hived off into private schools, and university fees are nowhere near the scale of England and Wales. And were free until not so long ago, so that is still circulating in terms of a good education being available freely to all classes.

What I also never hear in Ireland is what I often see on Mn 'Oh, my child isn't academic', and I also don't think there's the same suspicion of anything perceived to be 'intellectual'.

The Irish schools are often paid for schools so private to an extent. But much cheaper than here. So a couple of thousand a year instead of twenty thousand.

Also all Irish schools require you to pay for all books, paper, pens etc. Several hundred pounds a year from when they are little.

In my experience the Irish middle classes are well observed at the rugby or horse racing.
Lots of cashmere coats, 'country' hats and amazing leather boots (women) and to a man, cord trousers, brown brogues and thick country jackets.

Pop into the Shelbourne Hotel pre match to spot them in their happy environment.

My friend lives 'down country' and spots this type at her horse meets. There is a lot of wealth but it is is less flaunted and people are generally nicer to each other in my experience.

Good lord, Northern Ireland is the most passremarking place I have ever been to (I grew up there) and the subtle markers of class and religion make the English look like amateurs. To start with you’ve got the whole Protestant/Catholic thing - you don’t go to your local school if it’s the “wrong” religion, and if you want to see cars as an ostentatious display of wealth, Belfast is the place to go! There is also a narrow window of things considered acceptable- the tribe mind is alive and well.

I don’t have a huge experience of down South but it does seem to not be particularly kind to “tall poppies” - to paraphrase pp said, if you’ve got a nice life, let us cut you down to size. If that’s not about keeping people in their place in just the same way as ideas about class, what is?

Yes, class is very much a thing in England but it’s far more accepting to outsiders.

The difference with uni in Ireland and the Uk though is that if you don't get the grades, you don't get in. Simple as that. You are allotted points based on 6 Leaving Cert Subjects (your higher 6). Therefore, if you're a bogger from Carlow, or a knobhead from Dalkey, if you ain't got the brainpower, you ain't getting in. The high representation of private schools in Trinity would be explained a lot by those achieving higher points coming from educated intelligent parents perhaps where a focus may have been more on their academics than on their ability to play Gaelic for their county.

@Wolfff my family c of I but very culturally catholic imo. I have c of I friends who had to teach me not to push away my plate and say ''i'm stuffed'' and to instead say ''i've had an elegant sufficency'' but in my family all the obsessions were very traditional. Work hard! Be polite to teachers. Be respectful to OUR friends. do Well! Don't have Sex! Don't get Pregnant! Don't draw attention to yourself!!! Don't have notions!!

My mother is very pro life as well.

Argh no wonder I ran for the hills! My family is just my family and not the ambassor for any category of Irish society!

My son is at an ET as well, my mother hates how scruffy they look. Hoodies, blue hair, dreadlocks on the white kids. I find it relaxing as well. He started off in a primary school where everybody had a perfect life and I found it hard to be a single mother in that environment. My own issues which I've worked through, but still...........