To be shocked at how normal everything looks in New Zealand?

[GoldenLabbie]

Huge crowds seeing the New Year. No masks, no social distancing. You wouldn’t know that the rest of the world is in the grip of a pandemic looking at those scenes. How did we manage to get it so wrong but they got it so right? When you look at that you realise how the rest have screwed up so badly don’t you? I wonder what they make of all?

There’s no way a major economy and travel hub could have cut itself off from the rest of the world

They’re still importing and exporting goods though, just not people.

@MangoFeverDream

In fact, it’s not really clear that the WHO ever did recommend travel bans, a lot of their body of research on infectious disease actually argues against it.

I recall being told that closing borders was bad when I suggested next time we’d do it early. Due to the WHO. This was fairly late on.

But this is 29th Feb

Recommendations for international traffic

WHO continues to advise against the application of travel or trade restrictions to countries experiencing COVID-19 outbreaks.

@MangoFeverDream

In fact, it’s not really clear that the WHO ever did recommend travel bans, a lot of their body of research on infectious disease actually argues against it.

Australia and New Zealand don’t have travel bans. You can travel to both countries. But you have to quarantine, be tested, and isolate until clear. All of Australia’s cases at the moment are a result of travellers bringing it in. If other countries had it under control better then travel to those countries would be easier.

I do not comment on Johnson’s performance. Only on the ridiculousness of comparing the UK and NZ.

Exactly. Even if some think this thread about something else.

NOT ONE Australian indigenous person has been affected by the virus and the Pacific Islands have been spared as well. Whoever thinks there were no political decisions taking built a protective wall around them, are very naive.

The strength and quality of a country’s leadership can be predicated on how it treats its weakest members. (By weakest, mean most medically vulnerable). Jacinda has compassion. I’m less sure about ScoMo but she probably paved the way for him.

Look at how the U.K. managed covid in nursing homes.

@MangoFeverDream

You can’t commend Johnson for going along with the expert advice, when it’s the one time he should have done his own thing, as opposed to all the other times he’s done his own thing and ignored experts

I do not comment on Johnson’s performance. Only on the ridiculousness of comparing the UK and NZ.

Maybe you didn’t commend him as such, but you commented on his performance. You wrote:

do you really think Boris et al would have had the backbone to go against expert opinion?

This seems to indicate that you think he did the right thing because it would have taken backbone to go against expert opinion. This is in discussion of a person who spends his entire life going against expert opinion.

The point is that NZ can do a total travel ban and it’s not a big deal. It’s an isolated island without an international hub and a very small population

But it is a big deal. It may be a small island but economically it depends on international trade and migrants to function same as the UK in a much bigger scale.

The decisions made were health v economics. If the population is sick, they can't work and the health system will collapse. If the population is healthy they will continue working and get by economically. They are losing the international tourist revenue but because they are working they having holidays in their own country, creating more jobs. Australia and NZ economies are doing very well considering how many people thought they will collapse when they shut their borders.

UK could have done the same in a larger scale. Your government preferred to go with herd immunisation and has been on crap street since then.

@MangoFeverDream

The kids I know living in Japan didn’t have lessons at school from Feb/March until September, when their summer break finished and even then they’re not back at school full time now. Maybe different areas of the country have different rules, but they had to do school work at home full time until the summer break in July.

Many countries also had similarly bad testing systems early on. NZ definitely did. It doesn’t mean that isolating people who tested positive didn’t help in some way.

UK could have done the same in a larger scale. Your government preferred to go with herd immunisation and has been on crap street since then.

I don’t think it was a preference any more than it was when Merkel said the same would happen in Germany. The outcome was based on the variables of the virus and timing. A scientist here mentioned the same outcome as Merkel.

The point is that NZ can do a total travel ban and it’s not a big deal.

Not a big deal?? Are you kidding me.

Way to lose credibility.

It could have had strict quarantine rules, testing of arrivals, isolation of arrivals, contact tracing of arrivals, all justified by common sense and UK expert advice

And from when? Mass testing of arrivals wasn’t possible for quite some time. An infrastructure for contact tracing would have been nice, will agree on that.

That said, the WHO never recommended strict quarantines. At best, Feb. 29 WHO guidelines merely asked visitors to monitor themselves and report to health authorities if they had a problem:

Travellers returning from affected areas should self-monitor for symptoms for 14 days and follow national protocols of receiving countries

Also of interest:

Countries are reminded of the purpose of the International Health Regulations to prevent, protect against, control and provide a public health response to the international spread of disease in ways that are commensurate with and restricted to public health risks, and which avoid unnecessary interference with international traffic and trade. Countries implementing additional health measures which significantly interfere with international traffic are required to provide to WHO, within 48 hours of implementation, the public health rationale and relevant scientific information for the measures implemented

www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/updated-who-recommendations-for-international-traffic-in-relation-to-covid-19-outbreak

The WHO is still very lukewarm on travel bans and such, it should be said. But since they are politically popular 🤷‍♀️

I’m less sure about ScoMo but she probably paved the way for him.

I disagree. I'm not fond of Morrison but the decision how to create a wall around indigenous communities, it's part of an Australian pandemic plan independent of who is the PM.

BJ is the product of an abusive childhood and adolescence. Added to that his narcissism and his public school education, we have a man totally unfit to govern.

I accept its challenging but I cannot for the life of me think of one thing that has been handled well.

Early on he had a grip of the situation and time to actually do something. Cummings farcical behaviour left the public behind and we have lurched from crisis to crisis ( or U turn if you prefer)

"Have many countries around the world with similar populations or greater, with just as much travellers arriving, with just as much economic dependence on their neighbours done much better at managing Covid? Yes."

Is it basically France and Germany in Europe who are both similar geography/population and done much better? (Spain, Italy, are fairly similar to UK in deaths per million - or were last time I looked.) Taiwan and Japan outside Europe? There may be others. What did Germany do differently - in spring it seemed to be about better testing, but increasing testing in the UK has turned out not to be particularly effective? Did Germany have a quicker turnround on test results so that contacts could be notified earlier?

Did SAGE advise the government to lock down before 23 March? I am not sure that they did - I don't think there's any written record of that, is there? Of course advice may have been given orally. (I know other people were calling for it, obviously.)

Only on the ridiculousness of comparing the UK and NZ

On decisions made & outcomes perhaps, on leadership, i think comparison is valid.
JA has form on making and saying the right things at the right time and carrying her country with her.

I said many pages ago, the UK should compare itself to the countries like Japan, Germany (to some extent) SE Asian countries.

Unfortunately, the UK went into this pandemic after 10 years of tory austerity, poor stocks of PPE, a underfunded and understaffed NHS.

Add in an obese and unhealthy population, an inexperienced govt, fixated with Brexit, c/w with a populist leader and disaster was perhaps the only outcome.

I don’t think it was a preference any more than it was when Merkel said the same would happen in Germany.

Why are you comparing the UK, an island out of the EU and making it's own decisions, to Germany, a mainland EU country in the Schengen common area with free movement of people?

Johnson is not a good fit for this pandemic. He’s better when things are going well.

But we still wouldn’t have had an easy ride with someone else. Best case - not as good as Germany given infrastructure I reckon. Maybe France.

Aix yes it makes much more sense to look at what Germany did differently

@Alondra

I don’t think it was a preference any more than it was when Merkel said the same would happen in Germany.

Why are you comparing the UK, an island out of the EU and making it's own decisions, to Germany, a mainland EU country in the Schengen common area with free movement of people?

Timing and international hub.

Think about when virus hit U.K.

@TheOneLeggedJockey

The point is that NZ can do a total travel ban and it’s not a big deal.

Not a big deal?? Are you kidding me.

Way to lose credibility.

It’s not though. What an isolated country of 4 million people do is very different than what a very populous country like the UK does. It’s also a huge international travel and business hub.

It can’t just cut itself off from the world like NZ can.

I disagree. I'm not fond of Morrison but the decision how to create a wall around indigenous communities, it's part of an Australian pandemic plan independent of who is the PM.

That’s good to know.

And from when? Mass testing of arrivals wasn’t possible for quite some time. An infrastructure for contact tracing would have been nice, will agree on that.

From when airports in the far east starting doing it. If Chiangi Airport could manage, one of the busiest in the world so could everyone else. And they didn’t have the testing capacity because they didn’t order it. Like they were advised to.

That said, the WHO never recommended strict quarantines. At best, Feb. 29 WHO guidelines merely asked visitors to monitor themselves and report to health authorities if they had a problem:

But this advice has proved to be wrong. It’s not a “politically popular” decision. It’s the most sensible public health strategy. Allowing arrivals to freely roam unregulated in a country will lead to spread that can’t be traced or contained. Countries that have managed their own arrivals with quarantine have had fewer cases and manageable outbreaks. They key to being a leader is knowing which advice to follow and which to ignore, and Johnson keeps getting it wrong where other leaders like Ardern have succeeded.

The population density in New Zealand is 18 per Km2!!
The population density in the UK is 275 per Km2.

Johnson's public school education is irrelevant, they have acted on the same advice any lesder would have.

For the love of God won't some of you do some research, The UK has similar infection rates (per capita) to most European (like for like) countries. They arent all run by 'narcissists' with bad hairdos and a public school education i don't think.

On decisions made & outcomes perhaps, on leadership, i think comparison is valid.

And outcomes would have been very different with a different leader in NZ. Jacinda said in an interview that the alternative to a total lock down and border closure would have been “thousands of dead Kiwis” and that wasn’t acceptable to her.

Her decision turned out to be the best economic one, as well.

It’s true that Boris couldn’t have done the same thing as Jacinda but isn’t that the role of a good leader, to assess options and weigh up different outcomes?

The kids I know living in Japan didn’t have lessons at school from Feb/March until September

Most were back by May or early June at the latest.

Many countries also had similarly bad testing systems early on

Point is that the Japanese government felt it sufficient to restrict testing to the sick. They certainly didn’t think it was ‘bad’ policy. (A lot of Japanese thought differently though)

For the love of God won't some of you do some research, The UK has similar infection rates (per capita) to most European (like for like) countries.

Laughing as share frustration - after so many of these threads I’d hope people would actually read up on such a repeated topic.