living off savings for 16months

[wheresmymillionaire]

Just wondering what the general feeling is….
Is it fair that a self employed workers who used to earn £51k have to live off savings for 16months, whilst paye workers who earn £51k get £2.5k a month.
how can this be right? A family member used to work in the West End and is self employed. They're really struggling now. They can't even claim Universal credit as they have some online coaching work they do, but this doesn't cover their bills apparently, but stops them from getting the benefits. As I understand this, it must be wrong. What am I missing? Theatre was closed down, so why can't the actors etc be furloughed and get some money to see them through?

You are making some weird points based on something only you seem to be saying.

At it's most basic... if a thing is fair / unfair for an employee why isn't it equally fair / unfair for a self employed person?

@jillypill

That furloughed workers who earn 51k still get 2.5k per month, and self-employed workers who earn 51k are eligible for absolutely nothing.

Nope, I didn't miss that. The point I responded too was about using savings. And again not every furloughed employer is accessing the 100% figure so you can't state that as fact.

I'm so confused.

Yes, employed people may also have to use savings but they're still eligible for some kind government help (it may not be the full amount but if they're furloughed they'll be getting SOMETHING) whereas anyone self-employed gets nothing. So it's in no way the same.

The system is HUGELY swayed in favour of employed workers and the self-employed have been screwed over hugely, especially those self-employed who work on a freelance basis or offer out-of-the-home services like dog walking or cleaning (so they don't have a bricks and mortar business).

The whole thing is unfair.mfurloughed workers sill get loads of holidays carried forward in spite of being off. That's really bad and totally unfair.,

Why is it a weird point to say that not all furloughed workers are reviving their full salary? that not all furloughed workers are receiving the full 2.5k? and that some furloughed workers are having to use savings despite the fact they have had help?

Surely the difference is businesses are responsible for paying employed workers, they can’t just choose not to pay employees so the government had to step in to stop millions being made redundant. Self employed are responsible for themselves, so they won’t get made redundant as such. I don’t really understand why the self employed who have no work don’t get a job at one of the places who were crying out for more workers, like supermarkets and care homes? I was on furlough earlier this year and wasn’t allowed to get another job (was in my contract), but I would have got one if I had been allowed to.

The system isn't fair for lots of people & wasn't fair pre Covid.

What about those who have lost their jobs & cant access benefits because they have more than 16k of savings. What about those who were furloughed because of childcare duties which meant other employees had to pick up the slack. Or those who weren't furloughed, worked lots of unpaid hours & then lost their jobs.

Dividends aren’t untaxed, true, but by paying yourself a min wage salary (10k/year approx) + 40k dividends yearly you end up paying way less income tax than if you were employed and paid 50k a year. You can also put 40k a year in an pension and pay not tax on this. And this is not even taking into accounts things that can be claimed as expenses, ie no tax paid.
All legal, and all contractors do it.

So yes, there are advantages. On the other hand you don’t receive sick pay or holiday pay, and you have no employment safety. Everybody know the rules.
It is unfortunate that with Covid some have lost out but many have saved a lot before that, so it is a bit rich to complain now.
Fwiw I am a ltd director myself, I know that if my client need to loose a team member the contractors will go first (so, me) but I also know that in the meantime I earn more than my employed colleagues.

@Mousehole10 I agree furlough wasn't set up to protect individuals but businesses.

”If they are not eligable it's because they earn too much / have plenty of savings that they could use to support themself.”

It’s unreal that people actually think this

www.excludeduk.org/excluded-uk-an-inclusive-alliance-for-the-excluded

And that's the point of the OP!

My business is viable. I didn't stop working because it was not. I stopped because the government said I had to. My sector stopped for a while, I had to wait for it to decide how to be covid secure, waiting my for my insurances to be valid again. Not my choice.

I pay the same taxes as an employee but am expected to accept a different level of care and support in return. Not just in things covid related either!

All the explanations of why boil down to the simplistic: a business is not an individual, we don't support individuals.

@jillypill

Why is it a weird point to say that not all furloughed workers are reviving their full salary? that not all furloughed workers are receiving the full 2.5k? and that some furloughed workers are having to use savings despite the fact they have had help?

It's not a weird point at all, but it's irrelevant to the argument at hand.

Yes, they might need to use savings, but the point is that they're still getting some kind of help! It may not be their full salaries but 2k (or whatever) a month is a lot better than nothing!

I am newly self employed. I submitted my first tax return this month. I haven't received anything. The idea that I am somehow not entitled to anything as I don't pay the correct tax is nasty and hurtful.

Check out #excludedUK on twitter. There are 3million of us who have been excluded for various reasons. Hardworking, decent people are selling their homes, committing suicide... It is disgusting.

How is it irrelevant when I was specifically answering the point about using savings. Yes 2k is better than nothing but it doesn't mean your not using savings. That's the point!

No, no silly. The worst that can happen to you is that you might have to sell something superfluous!

A poster said so somewhere upthread. So it must be true!!?!

The people struggling with no income are also being gaslighted every time Rishi Sunak speaks and sweeps it away.

Thank goodness for the likes of Martin Lewis and Andy Burnham even Piers Morgan who are trying to help.

Tesco returned the financial support they received promptly as it turned out the big supermarkets didn’t need it after all. The hope was that this money and from other similar large businesses who didn’t need their extra money would be given to those individuals and families who have been struggling without all this time.

@jillypill

How is it irrelevant when I was specifically answering the point about using savings. Yes 2k is better than nothing but it doesn't mean your not using savings. That's the point!

But from what I can see, nobody said that being employed and furloughed didn't mean you weren't dipping into savings

But dipping into your savings while also receiving 2k per month off the government is still a very, very privileged position to be in. The self employed on 51k get zero government help because they "earn too much" yet the employed are still entitled to very generous amounts of help, even if they earn 6 figure salaries.

It's disgusting.

@SonjaMorgan

I am newly self employed. I submitted my first tax return this month. I haven't received anything. The idea that I am somehow not entitled to anything as I don't pay the correct tax is nasty and hurtful.

Check out #excludedUK on twitter. There are 3million of us who have been excluded for various reasons. Hardworking, decent people are selling their homes, committing suicide... It is disgusting.

for you. It's awful and I'm in a similar position to you.

I hope you're okay and totally agree that it's absolutely disgusting the way people have been treated.

You can also put 40k a year in an pension and pay not tax on this

Erm anyone can do this. If you do it net of tax as an employee you get the tax credited back to the payment

Stop saying £51k
It perpetuates this myth that according to this thread many people have: that it’s only affected people on high incomes.

Now now Barbara stop with the logic and truth!!?

It was a concrete difference the OP was using to make her point!

The people I know who work in theatre have all found all sorts of other jobs though? Amazon drivers, Tesco drivers, office admin etc. They aren't just sitting around waiting for their dream job to come back.

Yes when your business is no longer considered to be viable by the government closing industries down it’s obviously best to get another job.
Not easy when you’re almost 60 and only ever done one thing though
The competition is pretty tough at the moment

It's a shit show for so many of us. We have 0 savings. We're entitled to 0 UC. Yes it's shit for them but at least they have savings.