living off savings for 16months

[wheresmymillionaire]

Just wondering what the general feeling is….
Is it fair that a self employed workers who used to earn £51k have to live off savings for 16months, whilst paye workers who earn £51k get £2.5k a month.
how can this be right? A family member used to work in the West End and is self employed. They're really struggling now. They can't even claim Universal credit as they have some online coaching work they do, but this doesn't cover their bills apparently, but stops them from getting the benefits. As I understand this, it must be wrong. What am I missing? Theatre was closed down, so why can't the actors etc be furloughed and get some money to see them through?

It sure sucks to be self employed at the moment, but that's part of the risk when at to.rs, self employed have the freedom that is priceless for many and often bank a higher income for a similar job.
Not the case at all

In many industries, enforced self employment has been used to drive down wages

eg
self employed painters earn less per day now than they did 15 years ago
ditto all the building trades

self employed musicians were on PAYE 15 years ago

self employed actors have seen no net pay rise in 15 years

self employed hairdressers are competing with the grey economy
and slave / trafficked labour

self employed journalists used to be on PAYE

self employment is often the only way to get any income at all
as PAYE is not on offer

@vanillandhoney

Gov can't pay you if you haven't been trading as self employed otherwise anyone will say they have been and as they are not checking then it is open to fraud

Bollocks. They should pay me something based on my last 10+ years of tax contributions as an employee. I've paid my tax yet I get absolutely fuck all help, whereas someone who has never been employed in their life but happened to get a job in January, was eligible for furlough at 80% of their salary.

Stop defending this shit show.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be paid something by the govt. I'm saying you can't be defined as self employed as the timing was wrong for you. You should be entitled to something due to you being employed previously as you mentioned. You can't get UC? It's very difficult to work out but no one should fall through the cracks if they have been employed or self employed previously. It isn't fair that working people get nothing and unemployed people get something for doing nothing. I didn't mean it's right you get nothing but I suppose they are trying to benefit the majority of people in as little time as possible. That doesn't help you though, unfortunately. Now they have had more time they should be planning how to help the minority that fell through the cracks the first time, for sure.

@trevorandsimon but my point is that they've now had nearly a YEAR to fix this hole in the system and nothing has changed. Millions of people have had no income for 10 months now, and people are still defending it.

I didn't qualify for universal credit, I didn't qualify for the SEISS grant, I didn't qualify for any local council grants. I've paid my tax and worked full-time since I left education and I got nothing. I'm allowed to be angry and pissed off about that.

It shouldn't matter that I only become self-employed in February. I was employed for 10 years - they could have looked at my earnings and paid me an average "salary" amount. They could have paid me universal credit. There are so many options out there and they did none of them. The government has basically said a big "fuck you" to huge numbers of working people.

You are absolutely right, it isn't fair. I don't know what the solution is.

yes, it has made me very deep down angry as well.

@trevorandsimon

You are absolutely right, it isn't fair. I don't know what the solution is.

Surely it's quite simple.

Take everyone's tax returns for the last 2-3 years, and pay them their average monthly take home. If employed people on furlough can get up to 2.5k per month, self-employed people with a proven income (whether that be from employment or not) should be entitled to the same thing.

Self employed people can take out insurance to cover loss of earnings.

Self employed people can take out insurance to cover loss of earnings
Yes income protection, which covers you if you physically are unable to work, not because the government decided your business area has to close.

I wonder how all these "being out of work is part of the risk of being self-employed, que sera, sera, blah blah blah", types would react if self-employed people en masse said, "fuck it, you know what, you're right, I'm off to get a salaried job" . The country would grind to a halt.

90% of people in my field are self-employed - NOT through choice, but because that is the way the industry works. And this is not a low skilled profession, quite the opposite.

@Butchyrestingface You're not wrong, next year I'm getting a salaried job - I can leave the job at the door at 5.30pm , 28 days holiday, sick pay and a regular income. What the fuck have we been doing being self employed!!

As a self Employed person we made the choice to not pay ourselves a wage when times were good, so we can't expect furlough. I saved money instead to cover if I was ever ill or needed time off.
It is very fair, we chose not to tax so
We can't moan we don't get the benefit of that.

@SeasonFinale

Self employed people can take out insurance to cover loss of earnings.

Yep - I have it. It doesn't cover global pandemics though

@upthekyber

As a self Employed person we made the choice to not pay ourselves a wage when times were good, so we can't expect furlough. I saved money instead to cover if I was ever ill or needed time off. It is very fair, we chose not to tax so We can't moan we don't get the benefit of that.

Speak for yourself

@MaskingForIt

And it's because of a mistaken belief that self employed people fiddle their taxes

I’m sure some self-employed people fiddle their taxes, but is mostly because self-employed people can legally pay themselves a low wage in order to minimise their tax burden while also paying themselves an untaxed dividend.

That isn't self employment. That's setting up a company. It is different

@dontdisturbmenow

It's simple: if you've opted to pay yourself slow income made up by dividends to pay less taxes, it's now coming to bite you.

It isn't illegal, it was a good option for many, sadly, it isn't in this situation.

We all make decisions to end up with more income in our pocket. These decisions come with a risk just like it is to take travel insurance but not that covers certain sports we get involved with so save a few pounds.

The coronivirus was unprecedented but it wasn't totally impossible that something like this could happen.

That is if you have set up as a company. I am self employed. There are no dividends. I work out my profit and pay tax on it.

@trevorandsimon

I'm self employed, I've earned around 1-1.5k a month for the past 5 years or so. Since corona hit I've had 3 grants for the self employed from the govt totalling around 9.5k . I'm not complaining. I never fiddled my tax and this is the benefit.

I've never fiddled my tax but earn over 51k legitimately. Believe it or not, peoples can be self employed, not fiddle tax and earn over 51k just as people can be legitimately employed and have a salary of over 51k. It's just that the latter received some assistance.

@Jangle33

The other way of looking at this is to say it’s incredible the government has offered any furlough at all. It didn’t step in a similar way in the financial crisis of 2008 or countless other times. There is a benefits system which was good enough for those people who have been made redundant before . I obviously think that the furlough was completely the right thing to do but it does scare me how we are all going to pay for this and how little oversight of the scheme there has inevitably been from HMRC.

Pity though that this might not change the mindset of this country... we are mortgaged up to the hilt, new flashy cars on finance, no savings to speak of...I’m sure I’ve read we have the most debt per capita of anywhere in Europe. Clearly that this won’t change anything but there had to be a limited somewhere to the furlough but it’s sad some low earners lose out. I have no sympathy for higher earners at all. I think the £50k limit is sensible although should have been extended to employees too (though political suicide for the Tory shires!)At 50k per year you can have cut your cloth to have reasonable savings given it’s double the national average.

Not if only one working person in the home as the other is childcare, and your live in south. Also to be fair alot of people do not save for a pandemic. They will be tied into contracts I.e. mortgage, car which they cannot just end.

I luckily had some savings but was fresh from maternity leave (funded by me in the main) and the main earner. Getting no government help was scary. My savings wouldn't have lasted but luckily after a dip my sector did get some work. Others not as lucky.

Tbf shit interest rates has made saving unattractive.

I also don't think the gov brought in furlough because they were feeling generous. You aren't going to persuade millions to stay at home & not spread a virus if they don't have a way of supporting themselves. The gov would also have been thinking about potential civil unrest.

It does seem very unfair on people that it’s nothing after 51K in London as although that would be a decent wage here in the north it doesn’t go nearly as far there and cost of living etc mortgage repayments/rent so expensive.
The SEISS grant has worked out well for a few but is truly appalling for many. My DH and I were both ok but had the pandemic hit 2 years earlier we wouldn’t have been. That simple twist of fate really makes you think.

Those who are in settled jobs/financial security etc don’t judge - it could so easily be you. Surely compassion is always better than snidey sniping

upthekyber your post is nonsensical. Do you want to try again?

As a self employed person I don't always draw down a monthly amount into my personal account, to spend. I might leave some in the business account for taxes etc. But I have still earned that money and must pay taxes on it.

Whatever you think you just explained about the bad, bad self employed, you really didn't.

@CuriousaboutSamphire Yes, I'm really not following it either, it makes no sense whatsoever.

I was one of the recently self employed who gets nothing as well. Not looking forward to having to pay tax in january :(

Have you deferred your payments as much as possible?

I paid mine up front but am helping a friend who had a choice between buying more stick so she could continue to work or leaving that money for her taxes. She's never been in that position before and it scares the hell out of her.

She deferred what she could and is making the most of what opportunities she gets, but was really anxious for a few weeks.

Theatre workers in London are screwed. Many are excluded from gov help some way or another. I really feel for your cousin. Dh was a west end musician (also totally excluded from help). It just seems so wrong that those who did not fiddle their taxes, and worked silly hours to make money for their families, have been hit with no help.

People seem to think on here that if you fiddled your taxes you deserve no help. But it is the people who DIDN'T fiddle their taxes that are not getting any help.

And please can people stop mixing up company directors with sole traders.