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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

living off savings for 16months

233 replies

wheresmymillionaire · 26/12/2020 13:06

Just wondering what the general feeling is….
Is it fair that a self employed workers who used to earn £51k have to live off savings for 16months, whilst paye workers who earn £51k get £2.5k a month.
how can this be right? A family member used to work in the West End and is self employed. They're really struggling now. They can't even claim Universal credit as they have some online coaching work they do, but this doesn't cover their bills apparently, but stops them from getting the benefits. As I understand this, it must be wrong. What am I missing? Theatre was closed down, so why can't the actors etc be furloughed and get some money to see them through?

OP posts:
vanillandhoney · 27/12/2020 12:23

@Coconutmeg

Stop saying £51k Angry It perpetuates this myth that according to this thread many people have: that it’s only affected people on high incomes.
People are only saying 51k as that's the blanket cut off point for anyone who is self employed, whereas the same cut off point doesn't exist for the employed.
vanillandhoney · 27/12/2020 12:24

@KeyboardWorriers

The people I know who work in theatre have all found all sorts of other jobs though? Amazon drivers, Tesco drivers, office admin etc. They aren't just sitting around waiting for their dream job to come back.
Yeah, because it's really that straightforward Hmm.

The unemployment rate has leapt for a reason.

Coconutmeg · 27/12/2020 12:26

It’s not the only cut off point though and I think people here think it is.

There’s the 50:50 cut off point
Freelance PAYE cut off point
The dividends cut off point
The lack of premises cut off point
Etc etc
Affecting self employed on way less than 51k

Plussizejumpsuit · 27/12/2020 12:28

I'm in my first year of self employment. I had 1 contract for most of this year which was 6 days a month. Luckily my partner has a well paid job £53k ish. As I earned 1k a month. Almost all of the work available dried up. I didn't have much in terms of savings so if I didn't have him I'd be fuck. Although granted might have made different choices if we didn't live together etc.

I have felt its really unfair myself and many others who are self employed have to potentially struggle (and I'll pay more tax for it at the end) when people who are employed get 80% of their wage or can have part time work topped up by furlough payments.

It's shit for loads of people and don't want it to be us and them. But the government haven't helped this by making is to unequal.

vanillandhoney · 27/12/2020 12:29

@Coconutmeg

It’s not the only cut off point though and I think people here think it is.

There’s the 50:50 cut off point
Freelance PAYE cut off point
The dividends cut off point
The lack of premises cut off point
Etc etc
Affecting self employed on way less than 51k

Oh, I know that. But it is the most equal comparison to the self-employed grant, I think but even then people can't seem to grasp how unequal it is.
vanillandhoney · 27/12/2020 12:31

Sorry, that should say the most equal comparison to the employed furlough scheme. My brain isn't functioning Grin

CaptainSandy · 27/12/2020 12:31

See this shit about people with ltd companies being tax dodgers and dividends being tax free?
It's that attitude that means I don't really give a fuck about sticking to the covid rules. Its clear that most people will happily see us lose everything so why should I care about "keeping them safe"?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/12/2020 12:34

Because you can't target the individuals that don't care about you.

dontforgetbilly · 27/12/2020 12:36

@jillypill

How is it irrelevant when I was specifically answering the point about using savings. Yes 2k is better than nothing but it doesn't mean your not using savings. That's the point!
It's a tone deaf point. 2k a month is so much more than 'better than nothing' for so many people receiving no support. Such a hugely insensitive point to not just drop
JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn · 27/12/2020 12:50

The whole system stinks. I've worked and paid taxes as employed and self employed for over 30 years.

Was actually employed when covid hit. Company refused to furlough. Made everyone redundant. Not there long enough to get redundancy pay. Just over 16k savings (for DD to go to Uni - it's taken 12 years to save). Not entitled to UC, so £74 per week.

So life savings have to be used while I desperately try to find employment, while others receive handouts on furlough. It has been so unfair for so many people.

Original poster
wheresmymillionaire · 27/12/2020 13:01

WOW.

It is so very unfair. How has this been allowed to happen?
To me, it seems so obvious. Look at the workers who have had to stop working because of COVID, take peoples earnings, and decide on a level of help. Why does it matter if they are employed or self employed? What am I missing?

OP posts:
vanillandhoney · 27/12/2020 13:02

@wheresmymillionaire

WOW. It is so very unfair. How has this been allowed to happen? To me, it seems so obvious. Look at the workers who have had to stop working because of COVID, take peoples earnings, and decide on a level of help. Why does it matter if they are employed or self employed? What am I missing?
People don't care about the self-employed - apparently we all fiddle our taxes Hmm
CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/12/2020 13:03

You are missing the Meeja Hype.

You know, the one where all self employed people work cash in hand and don't declare all their earnings and really just push their mega bucks around to avoid taxation.

They is all Utter Barstards and don't deserve a cushy handout!

Original poster
wheresmymillionaire · 27/12/2020 13:05
Hmm Shock Confused Angry
OP posts:
Original poster
wheresmymillionaire · 27/12/2020 13:09

well, I have to say, I am truly shocked by this. My heart really does go out to anyone caught out by this. Flowers I ope you all manage to get by and pick things up again in the coming months. Lets hope these vaccines get things back to normal again.

OP posts:
MRex · 27/12/2020 13:10

Payments to below £51k self employed and not to all are inherently unfair when they all have the same opportunities to make or not make money; it should have been an equitable £2.5k across all sole traders if anyone was getting some, or a streamlined route into universal credit. Treating low paid sole traders differently seems only intended to save universal credit paperwork.

The purpose of furlough as a scheme though is to prevent companies from going bust. It's quite odd with all this furlough debate in general; I'm not sure people always realise they should actually be working if they can. A sole trader isn't a company in the same respect because it is a mode of employment that can be dropped and restarted any time. A sole trader is supposed to establish their own new opportunities, so if someone finds themselves without work then ideally they should be trying to use their skills in a different way or considering other types of job temporarily. If they're talented enough to make over £51k, then they should be talented enough to do either. So, I can see why there is some reluctance to paying out more government money even though it is obviously unfair when under £51k get a contribution.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/12/2020 13:19

Oh please! I'm a sole traders, not Mary bleeding Poppins!

vanillandhoney · 27/12/2020 13:24

@MRex

Payments to below £51k self employed and not to all are inherently unfair when they all have the same opportunities to make or not make money; it should have been an equitable £2.5k across all sole traders if anyone was getting some, or a streamlined route into universal credit. Treating low paid sole traders differently seems only intended to save universal credit paperwork.

The purpose of furlough as a scheme though is to prevent companies from going bust. It's quite odd with all this furlough debate in general; I'm not sure people always realise they should actually be working if they can. A sole trader isn't a company in the same respect because it is a mode of employment that can be dropped and restarted any time. A sole trader is supposed to establish their own new opportunities, so if someone finds themselves without work then ideally they should be trying to use their skills in a different way or considering other types of job temporarily. If they're talented enough to make over £51k, then they should be talented enough to do either. So, I can see why there is some reluctance to paying out more government money even though it is obviously unfair when under £51k get a contribution.

Really? Really? Angry
Original poster
wheresmymillionaire · 27/12/2020 13:34

MRex
So how should my cousin - an actor/dancer/singer - be making enough money to cover his mortgage and bills? He already does classes online, but this does not cover his bills.

He doesn't drive, and can't get a supermarket job yet.

OP posts:
Mylittleturkeysandwich · 27/12/2020 13:43

He probably can't make enough money to cover his bills. Many people can't. If DH wasn't with me he'd be fucked. He's not self employed, he was furloughed on a percentage of minimum wage (his employer put everyone on minimum wage just before furlough was announced and never took them back off it). When the scheme was initially due to end they let him go, when the scheme was extended they wouldn't take him back. He currently earns nothing. Not a penny. He's applied for JSA months but the application has not yet been picked up. I'm working full time at the moment and delivering take away whenever I'm not at my other job.

Wbeezer · 27/12/2020 15:55

@Jangle33 we're OK got the grants etc. Just showing solidarity with those who didnt and have to put up with outdated "facts" about self employment being bandied about.

MRex · 27/12/2020 16:14

@wheresmymillionaire - it's up to him what he does based on his full skillset. What's strange is that you think it's impossible for him to look for work when it was clear back in March that this would last a long time and we're now 9 months later!? I have friends who work in the creative field; one is doing additional short film editing and production, one went back to writing news articles, one is involved with online events (facilitated team bonding stuff online), one is planning and selling events for 2021/2022, one from theatre has been making extra scrubs and expanded into a small clothing business... I'm sure your cousin has capabilities too. Online classes could certainly be expanded, online voice work, social media work if he has skills in that area, do creative stuff on his own youtube channel, contact centre type of work if he has sales experience etc. The full set of career options aren't limited to just singing or shelf stacking.

yellowcatss · 27/12/2020 16:37

it would of been fairer i the government paid everyone the same amount as atm you get punished for working

Dreamscomingtrue · 27/12/2020 23:41

www.facebook.com/chutneyhipwood/videos/10157487093626993/

CrazyCatLover · 28/12/2020 01:18

The self-employed have been offered more than enough. Care homes etc are crying out for staff, if you are in dire straits financially then you have to do what you have to do to survive. No point sitting around moping about it.

What is unfair, is low paid workers who haven’t stopped throughout the pandemic more than likely being faced with tax increases to compensate for all the excess furlough and grants handed out so ending up worse off for working.