We’re going to lose everything..

[Worriednow77]

Are we going to end up with nothing, as a country? No businesses will be left and where will the money come from to fund us all?
Wuhan and other countries look practically back to normal, with no vaccine. Why are we having the vaccine but also being told social distancing etc won’t end? What’s the point?! What’s the plan...I feel like we’re all just drifting into something

So authoritarian governments (who treat their citizens like possessions to be owned and controlled) have just got lucky because it just so happens that this makes them more able to mitigate the potential damage from the virus.
In Singapore they've managed to do well because they treat foreign workers like animals?

China was welding people indoors, and chasing little old ladies who were doing their shop with drones. China also has one of the largest militaries worldwide and the police is just an extension of the military.

They had the man power to not only terrify its citizens to stay indoors lest they were arrested and sent to camps, but also to mobilise testing and now vaccines.

Plus, the asian countries were already set up with a decent T&T system having had previous experience with SARS, MERS etc. This was all essentially new to the western world in their living memory so of course we flounder somewhat.

We dont have the internal infrastructure to shut down from the rest of the world like Australia and New Zealand do, and we're much more densely populated.

Lockdowns do not work. My town was one of the best in the UK, by the second week of december we suddenly climbed to one of the worst. I didnt see anyone that whole time without a mask and our schools overall did very well with very few cases. It was our working age population that bumped the figures up, because we all still need to work !!

Those EU countries with the lockdown many mumsnetters worshipped are now in the same position we are. Because at the end of the day a virus is gonna do what a virus does and its absurd to think we can beat it by locking ourselves. We have only ever gotten viruses under control by vaccines being wildly distributed.

We wont lose everything on a country wide level, we will recover just as we have done in the past. But many families will lose everything due to lack of jobs, income and livlihoods. For a virus over 99% of us will survive, including the elderly and ECV.

First of all there is absolutely no way you or any of the rest of the world would know if China is back to normal! They are a communist country and are well known for not allowing any form of facebook/you tube etc apart from what is internally monitored.

They already had 3 times the amount of deaths they quoted I wouldn't believe a word they say.

However yes I agree we are buggered and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool...we'll be left with Amazon and food shops, most smaller independents will be gone including the clubbing scenes etc.

I honestly think this cycle of lockdown/open/lockdown/open is so damaging there needs to be some sort of normality returning for the vast majority of people apart from those very very vulnerable

@SpnBaby1967

China was welding people indoors, and chasing little old ladies who were doing their shop with drones. China also has one of the largest militaries worldwide and the police is just an extension of the military.

They had the man power to not only terrify its citizens to stay indoors lest they were arrested and sent to camps, but also to mobilise testing and now vaccines.

Plus, the asian countries were already set up with a decent T&T system having had previous experience with SARS, MERS etc. This was all essentially new to the western world in their living memory so of course we flounder somewhat.

We dont have the internal infrastructure to shut down from the rest of the world like Australia and New Zealand do, and we're much more densely populated.

Lockdowns do not work. My town was one of the best in the UK, by the second week of december we suddenly climbed to one of the worst. I didnt see anyone that whole time without a mask and our schools overall did very well with very few cases. It was our working age population that bumped the figures up, because we all still need to work !!

Those EU countries with the lockdown many mumsnetters worshipped are now in the same position we are. Because at the end of the day a virus is gonna do what a virus does and its absurd to think we can beat it by locking ourselves. We have only ever gotten viruses under control by vaccines being wildly distributed.

We wont lose everything on a country wide level, we will recover just as we have done in the past. But many families will lose everything due to lack of jobs, income and livlihoods. For a virus over 99% of us will survive, including the elderly and ECV.

Finally a mnetter who speaks sense...

And sent to camps
Let's not forget that China has concentration camps, stories abound of enforced organ donations from conscious subjects
Do we really want to be like China?

Apparently we do!!! 🙄

I don't understand why every thread has to turn into a 'Why couldn't we have done the same as New Zealand/China/Singapore/Australia?" Thes discussions have been going on over and over again for months now. Rightly or wrongly, Britain responded in much the same way, and with similar outcomes, as most comparable Western European nations. What's the point in these repetitive coulda woulda shoulda discussions?

Asking people not to catastrophise on MN is a waste of time.

It's not even just all about China, look at South Korea, they didn't even have full on lockdowns and their deaths are really low.

Iced I know.

Plus if Adern had been in the same position as Europe and locked down Jan / early Feb then yes Crystal ball award. Expecting every other country to do the same would mean this kind of foresight.

When back then the whole world was listening to WHO (bar Taiwan maybe).

look at South Korea, they didn't even have full on lockdowns and their deaths are really low.

South Korea is basically a survellience state. They have access to all data collected on citizens. CCTV, phone records, bank transactions. Plus they publish the geolocation of people diagnosed with Covid.

They were fucking awesome at T&T. But that’s why.

Nothing like a bit of festive hysteria....life will go on and we will continue to evolve...Calm yourself down ffs...

Things will bounce back but I have absolutely no idea how the government is going to afford the benefits bill for the unemployed. It will be shocking especially with rents so high.

Yes South Korea is awesome at T&T because they have the data but tbh people give out their data anywya eveytime they use Google, FB etc I'd rather have a proper T&T than be in lockdown forever

@Frenchdressing

Asking people not to catastrophise on MN is a waste of time.

It has similarities to Twitter in this regard. There’s a momentum that builds up where anxious people are looking for others to calm them down but instead whip up a level of hysteria and panic amongst other like minded people. I understand it and I honestly sympathise, I just know it doesn’t help and certainly doesn’t soothe.

at the end of the day, we can make all sort of excuses for this government and say that the asian countries that did ok don't respect human rights (which may well be true for some) but the reality is this:

1. we will be in either tier 2 or tier 3 till the end of april- more likely tier 3
2. the people on furlough would not have worked for more than a year, so the state has been paying their salaries for more than a year, we would have to pay that back at some point
3. Many businesses have not been able to open properly for more than a year or only for short periods
4. Likely to be July to Sept 2021 before the vaccine can be administered to a large percentage of the population and life can become more normal

We shouldn't conflate economic growth with human rights, they are separate issues.There are countries who would emerge economically stronger after covid and there are countries who would be much poorer after covid. the UK would belong to the latter, we still have our democracy and human rights intact.

However, the years of economic depression that would follow mean more families would be struggling to afford the basic necessities, many graduates would be unemployed. Far right/far left populism does very well in such conditions as it did in Greece. It is much harder to tell someone without a job and an empty fridge not to vote for a far right loony.

@EddieBananas

There will be winners and losers. We're lucky in that DH's industry is booming and my job is secure.

I'm hoping that there will be a huge reset. Too many people at the top have had it good for too long to the detriment of the people at the bottom.

I said I'm 'hoping for a huge reset'. I have no idea how. I just know that society bloody needs it.

Too many people putting up with crap jobs/low pay/poor conditions for too long.

I agree that this is probably going to make things much worse for the masses. It's rubbish.

@Oliversmumsarmy

Singapore population density: 8358 per Km2
Taipei population density: 9,918 people per square kilometer
London population density: 5,701 people per square kilometre
Tokyo population density: 6,158 persons per square kilometer
Seoul Population density: 15,900 persons per square kilometer

London has by far the lowest population density. and london wasn't even the worst affected region in the uk. Not all these countries are authoritarian dictatorships.

but tbh people give out their data anywya eveytime they use Google, FB

No. They don’t give it to the government to use as they see fit. They’re prevented from doing that by GDPR.

I'd rather have a proper T&T than be in lockdown forever

If you’re advocating a wholesale overthrowing of our data privacy laws, I’d be careful what you wish for.

They were discussing this on French radio and thought that things would go back to more like normality in the spring / early summer, on the basis that the elderly would have been vaccinated, which would free up hospitals and reduce risk levels. Once Covid becomes an illness that only a small minority of people suffer badly from, people will start to change their behaviour to close to normality, presumably.

Wuhan had a nasty horrible lockdown, people were literally locked into buildings with chains on the door, didn’t you see the pictures? No one could go anywhere, soldiers were on the streets to enforce Plus the Chinese lied about the number of figures for deaths, it’s massively higher, and have kept very quiet about other outbreaks

They are also having a vaccine which has just started

Of course businesses will be left, don’t be so hysterical, but yes lots may not survive, and that is awful for them.

But remember it’s not just us, this is a pandemic, most countries are in the same place

The Government is in a no win situation, had they closed the borders as others have done there there would be uproar, there was a whole slew of posts on schools should be opened, now they are everyone is saying they should be closed, masks should be worn, masks shouldn’t be worn, we should have a full lockdown again, we shouldn’t, we need time of for Christmas, we dont need time of for Christmas, pubs should be open, we don’t need to follow the rules but use common sense and so on and so on

NRTWT

China has horrific human rights abuses. As a state is uses slave Labour.

I dislike Bo jo and his lot immensely. But people don’t disappear without trace and no way of finding them in the U.K. I’ll have that over Wuhan style lockdown.

hopingforonlychild

Sorry I think I was looking at the population density of the country.

[quote hopingforonlychild]@RedToothBrush would you rather they quarantine the migrant workers or let the virus rip through singapore which would be catastrophic given the population density. How they treat foreign workers in singapore isn't nice, i give you that, but they are increasing the minimum housing standards.

There are families cramped in HMOs in London which are little better, i don't see the british government doing anything to help them.Many are forced to keep working even if they have covid to pay the bills. At least those migrant workers can remit money back to bangladesh to give their families a better life, the families in HMOs in london have nothing.[/quote]
Are YOU suggesting we lock up all our low paid workers to stop the disease spreading?

We are not an authoritarian country like Singapore or China. Nor would do I aspire to be one.

That means we have to try and manage the situation in other ways.

I'm not going to remotely suggest we replicate Singapore or China because the long term implications of that are far more than about one aspect in life and don't improve the economic hardship that many are suffering either.

@OhDear2200 it is precisely because of China's horrific human rights abuses thats why we should be very worried about countries like that becoming the predominant economic superpower and the West becoming much poorer.

Countries with money have bargaining power. If the west is in a lot of debt due to covid 19 and the likes of China are doing really well, who is going to be in the driving seat? China has imperialist ambitions as it was never given the full opportunity to colonize the world like the Europeans did. Our democracies are more fragile than we think and can be subject to tampering by world powers.

Inadvertently by respecting the rights of the individual during the pandemic, this could mark a turning point into a future where we are dominated by a country that doesn't respect anyone's human rights.