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AIBU?

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Original poster

To find drag queens offensive?

999 replies

MrsMummy500 · 12/12/2020 18:39

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

OP posts:
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5
Quaagars · 13/12/2020 19:32

As a woman I find it deeply offensive when people dress up as women in order to mock us

And I've said that I can see why people find it offensive too, it doesn't mean I do though.
Although, what has that got to do with what you quoted of mine?
How is what I quoted not offensive - They can't make it in the world of men so choose to be men dressed as women
Or are you saying because you think they're being offensive, then it's OK to be just as, or more offensive back?
How is that right if so?

Ninbuscl · 13/12/2020 19:32

I think it is very surprising that drag still exists really. It seems so obviously offensive

Aspiringmatriarch · 13/12/2020 19:32

Just read through most of this thread, wow, what a joyless place mumsnet is at times. I think the bullying of kimchi has been appalling.

I don't particularly like drag and I do think some of it's offensive (terms like fishy etc, are clearly misogynistic), but I don't think it's all like that by any means. Imo you can't really compare it to black and white minstrel shows as the history and context is so different. I have no problem with men playing a part for entertainment, being over the top 'female stereotypes' if you will, as long as it's not done in a nasty way. As far as I can see, some of it is, and plenty of it isn't, and I disagree with lumping it all together as some homogeneous thing when it's actually pretty diverse, and yes there are drag kings too.

Do you honestly see so much hatred and contempt in it? I don't, and I don't think it's meant to be taken seriously or be in any way a realistic depiction of women. It's taking the piss out of certain over the top stereotypes, or celebrating them, it's not an attack on real women. I think for some people it fulfills a need to be theatrical, to be very different from their day to day persona, and maybe just to dress up and feel beautiful.

I'm not suggesting there aren't problematic examples (some mentioned on this thread), but why the need to take everything to the nth degree? I think some posters on this site are frankly tedious ideologues (and inevitably trot out bad faith questions like what is gender, what is a woman), who want to stir up resentment and division because that's the worldview they inhabit.

likeamillpond · 13/12/2020 19:34

If it's an Art Form (I don't see how) there's very little skill involved in Being Bitchy And Sarcastic
It's hopefully a dying one

happygolurkey · 13/12/2020 19:34

I really think unless you're part of the LGBTQ+ community, it's not up to you to police what's offensive within that community.

it's not just 'within that community' though is it? it's become mainstream entertainment. There was a period I couldn't go on i-player without drag race being plugged, despite the fact I have no interest in it. Am i not allowed an opinion on something that's being pushed to me at every turn? No-one is 'trying to police', just saying what we find objectionable, which is our right, surely? For me, when I listen to drag, the whole thrust seems misogynist. It reminds me of those bosses you get who know they can make certain 'jokes'. it's nasty and from anyone else would be unacceptable, but they can get away with it because they are 'the boss'. With drag, yes, it's coming from gay men, and yes, they may face discrimination in other ways, but they still have the upper hand over women overall. And, for me, drag feels like them rubbing women's face in it. On top of that, I've just never found it funny. Others do, fair enough. I'm personally not in favour of banning things. But it is interesting that, as others have pointed out, other types of 'appropriation' are deemed unacceptable these days, but caricaturing women is fine.

Quaagars · 13/12/2020 19:35

Great post @Aspiringmatriarch

likeamillpond · 13/12/2020 19:35

Mass Bullying of women is offensive.

formerbabe · 13/12/2020 19:35

I have no problem with men playing a part for entertainment, being over the top 'female stereotypes'

Change the word 'female' to 'black', 'gay' or 'jewish'. Still entertaining is it? @aspiringmatriarch

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 19:36

@happygolurkey

I really think unless you're part of the LGBTQ+ community, it's not up to you to police what's offensive within that community.

it's not just 'within that community' though is it? it's become mainstream entertainment. There was a period I couldn't go on i-player without drag race being plugged, despite the fact I have no interest in it. Am i not allowed an opinion on something that's being pushed to me at every turn? No-one is 'trying to police', just saying what we find objectionable, which is our right, surely? For me, when I listen to drag, the whole thrust seems misogynist. It reminds me of those bosses you get who know they can make certain 'jokes'. it's nasty and from anyone else would be unacceptable, but they can get away with it because they are 'the boss'. With drag, yes, it's coming from gay men, and yes, they may face discrimination in other ways, but they still have the upper hand over women overall. And, for me, drag feels like them rubbing women's face in it. On top of that, I've just never found it funny. Others do, fair enough. I'm personally not in favour of banning things. But it is interesting that, as others have pointed out, other types of 'appropriation' are deemed unacceptable these days, but caricaturing women is fine.

In fairness though , I can't stand Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr and how in this day and age they can still run routines taking the piss out of vulnerable groups , so I just don't watch them.
Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 19:36

@Aspiringmatriarch

Just read through most of this thread, wow, what a joyless place mumsnet is at times. I think the bullying of kimchi has been appalling.

I don't particularly like drag and I do think some of it's offensive (terms like fishy etc, are clearly misogynistic), but I don't think it's all like that by any means. Imo you can't really compare it to black and white minstrel shows as the history and context is so different. I have no problem with men playing a part for entertainment, being over the top 'female stereotypes' if you will, as long as it's not done in a nasty way. As far as I can see, some of it is, and plenty of it isn't, and I disagree with lumping it all together as some homogeneous thing when it's actually pretty diverse, and yes there are drag kings too.

Do you honestly see so much hatred and contempt in it? I don't, and I don't think it's meant to be taken seriously or be in any way a realistic depiction of women. It's taking the piss out of certain over the top stereotypes, or celebrating them, it's not an attack on real women. I think for some people it fulfills a need to be theatrical, to be very different from their day to day persona, and maybe just to dress up and feel beautiful.

I'm not suggesting there aren't problematic examples (some mentioned on this thread), but why the need to take everything to the nth degree? I think some posters on this site are frankly tedious ideologues (and inevitably trot out bad faith questions like what is gender, what is a woman), who want to stir up resentment and division because that's the worldview they inhabit.

Thank you Flowers
jellyfrizz · 13/12/2020 19:37

Imo you can't really compare it to black and white minstrel shows as the history and context is so different.

How so?

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 19:37

@formerbabe

I have no problem with men playing a part for entertainment, being over the top 'female stereotypes'

Change the word 'female' to 'black', 'gay' or 'jewish'. Still entertaining is it? @aspiringmatriarch

OTT gay characters are prevalent in mainstream media on a daily basis.
likeamillpond · 13/12/2020 19:38

Aspirung
You say it's 'taking the piss out of over the top stereotypes
Why are these stereotpes always women?
Why are t they taking the piss out of men?
Can you seriously NOT see what's so offensive about that?

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 19:40

@likeamillpond

Aspirung You say it's 'taking the piss out of over the top stereotypes Why are these stereotpes always women? Why are t they taking the piss out of men? Can you seriously NOT see what's so offensive about that?
Men have the piss taken out of them in many different ways on all sorts of programmes for laughs. They really do.
Aspiringmatriarch · 13/12/2020 19:40

Change the word 'female' to 'black', 'gay' or 'jewish'. Still entertaining is it? @aspiringmatriarch**

To me personally, it's not entertaining. But I don't equate race and gender in the way you do, no.

GetOffYourHighHorse · 13/12/2020 19:41

'If it's an Art Form (I don't see how) there's very little skill involved in Being Bitchy And Sarcastic. It's hopefully a dying one'

Yes, let's hope so.

Eggmcmuffin · 13/12/2020 19:42

I'd genuinely never really thought about it like this before reading this but you have a good point. Its another example of everyday sexism that is tolerated in the main.

Aspiringmatriarch · 13/12/2020 19:43

*Imo you can't really compare it to black and white minstrel shows as the history and context is so different.

How so?*

I'm sure you can find that one out with a little help from Google.

Quaagars · 13/12/2020 19:43

To me personally, it's not entertaining. But I don't equate race and gender in the way you do, no

This
I had a long comment but deleted it all and it pretty much is what you said but a lot less succinctly Grin
Race and gender/sex are two different struggles.

formerbabe · 13/12/2020 19:44

OTT gay characters are prevalent in mainstream media on a daily basis

Ever seen a stage show based solely on straight people pretending to be gay?

jellyfrizz · 13/12/2020 19:44

OTT gay characters are prevalent in mainstream media on a daily basis.

People pretending to be gay by using OTT stereotypes? That’s not right either clearly.

GetOffYourHighHorse · 13/12/2020 19:45

'But I don't equate race and gender in the way you do, '

It isn't a case of 'equating' it, it is trying to give people other examples where mimicry is not ok to make them open their eyes a bit.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 19:46

@formerbabe

OTT gay characters are prevalent in mainstream media on a daily basis

Ever seen a stage show based solely on straight people pretending to be gay?

Not comparable to a drag show.
jellyfrizz · 13/12/2020 19:47

I'm sure you can find that one out with a little help from Google.

I have googled and asked the question a few times in good faith on here. I am genuinely interested in why people think there is no parallel.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 19:47

@jellyfrizz

OTT gay characters are prevalent in mainstream media on a daily basis.

People pretending to be gay by using OTT stereotypes? That’s not right either clearly.

No it isn't , but I have never seen anything like the outrage against drag and gay characters and dancers being on TV directed towards that.