To find drag queens offensive?

[MrsMummy500]

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

@jellyfrizz

When was the last time you saw a female presenter on telly with her hair up and jeans on?

Err, right now, in our house Jodie Whittaker is reading Inspector Hector on CBeebies Bedtime Stories. Her hair is too short to put up though and they may be other trousers, not jeans.

You know what I mean.

Primetime female presenters on big shows are expected to dress a certain way.

I do have an explanation to your question, but I think you crossed the line and am therefore not willing to engage you. Your reverse psychology doesn't work on me I'm afraid.

It's categorically not reverse psychology. Its my opinion that you only became so defensive after you called me out on being wrong about gender I asked you to explain why (as its apparently you're area of expertise). You were just as rude assuming you know better than I did on the subject and then swiftly reacted the way you did when pressed further.

This is just the internet and I have no idea who you are or how much of what you're saying is true. So I will go on the assumption that you suddenly becoming angry when questioned, when you were quite happy to be antagonised previously (positively laughing about it), means that you do not have an explanation about gender beyond 'beliefs' and what can be regarded as sex based stereotypes. I'm also quite done going around in circles about it with you, so since you're apparently so offended by someone questioning your ability to explain things you're not engaging further. That's absolutely fine. Let's leave it there.

Primetime female presenters on big shows are expected to dress a certain way.

That's because of gender stereotypes. Which is why drag acts are enforcing gender stereotypes, not subverting them.

I genuinely find it very sad that you see the world like that. That being a woman is a shared history of oppression. What a way to live.

At the risk of your wrath, how do you define a woman beyond biological sex and a shared history on sex oppression? What else is there, how is one a woman in the definitive sense?

@BrumBoo

I do have an explanation to your question, but I think you crossed the line and am therefore not willing to engage you. Your reverse psychology doesn't work on me I'm afraid.

It's categorically not reverse psychology. Its my opinion that you only became so defensive after you called me out on being wrong about gender I asked you to explain why (as its apparently you're area of expertise). You were just as rude assuming you know better than I did on the subject and then swiftly reacted the way you did when pressed further.

This is just the internet and I have no idea who you are or how much of what you're saying is true. So I will go on the assumption that you suddenly becoming angry when questioned, when you were quite happy to be antagonised previously (positively laughing about it), means that you do not have an explanation about gender beyond 'beliefs' and what can be regarded as sex based stereotypes. I'm also quite done going around in circles about it with you, so since you're apparently so offended by someone questioning your ability to explain things you're not engaging further. That's absolutely fine. Let's leave it there.

I don't know why I wasted my time replying previously when you've just made exactly the same points again . I laughed about being antagonised over things that were so ridiculous that it's fine. Doesn't impact my day to day life.

I really object to my capabilities in my job being questioned. I'm pretty sure I've said that.

Your overwhelming vibe is very demanding and that people must answer to you and your issue is that I don't and won't. So if that leads you to believe it's because I don't know , rather than because I just don't respect or like you based on how you come across , that's your own arrogance and not my circus.

@Wheresmykimchi
You embody everything that is wrong with woke principles. I agree with a previous poster that your sense of logic and ability to debate is frankly terrible. The fact that you have a teaching position of some kind is disturbing because you simply dont have the level.

I see you were extremely active on the "just about fucking had it with men" thread, defending the male position. On this thread, you have stated you are passionate about violence directed at men.

Can I ask whether you are biologically female, and if so, where do you think this passion for defending the male perspective stems from?

@Quaagars

However, wearing women's clothes, having fancy hair, doing your nails, being 'fabulous' or any other stereotyped 'female' things in no way makes one a woman

Completely agree.
Do those in drag say they are women though?
For example I watched Drag Race (I know, I know) they know fine well they're men.
"Gentlemen, start your engines and may the best lady win!"
They know they're men, they're just expressing themselves, dressing up.
It's a character, an act.
(And to be fair some of that makeup is ace, don't know how they do it lol)
Then when it comes off they're back to themselves as a man.
Same with Widow Twankie. Ugly Sisters. They don't think they really are a woman.

If they know full well they are men then why is the quote not:

Gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win?

It's a character, an act. An act that requires them to dress in a way that is the worst, over the top, exaggerated form of what they, as men, think a woman is, looks like or behaves. How is that not offensive to the group of people who they are parodying?

Why the need to dress up to express yourself by ridiculing women, why not express yourself and dress up to ridicule men, as that is what they are?

@BrumBoo

I genuinely find it very sad that you see the world like that. That being a woman is a shared history of oppression. What a way to live.

At the risk of your wrath, how do you define a woman beyond biological sex and a shared history on sex oppression? What else is there, how is one a woman in the definitive sense?

Wrath yeah, cause I'm really vicious , me.

I understand what you're saying but I would like to think I define myself as more than years of oppression.

I wouldn't dare ask your views on transgender.

even you must see toys were thrown out of the pram about not explaining something they could very easily do if they actually know about it, academically

No, because see my comment explaining exactly why people sometimes don't answer.
Half the time it's nothing to do with that they don't know.

[quote BrightonEarly1]@Wheresmykimchi
You embody everything that is wrong with woke principles. I agree with a previous poster that your sense of logic and ability to debate is frankly terrible. The fact that you have a teaching position of some kind is disturbing because you simply dont have the level.

I see you were extremely active on the "just about fucking had it with men" thread, defending the male position. On this thread, you have stated you are passionate about violence directed at men.

Can I ask whether you are biologically female, and if so, where do you think this passion for defending the male perspective stems from?[/quote]
You can ask fuck all after your opening point , I'm afraid.

Congratulations on drawing attention to my presence in the other thread , but you're a bit late to the party as I've mentioned that thread several times.

I mean I would respond to your final question , but I 'simply don't have the level '

I would chat further but il need to write a resignation letter seeing as it is disturbing that I have a teaching position, glad you were here to enlighten me.

Kimchi forgive me for being stupid, I just dont get it.
Do you find Drag offensive? You still haven't answered that question.

I understand what you're saying but I would like to think I define myself as more than years of oppression.

Not asking how you define yourself, I'm asking how you define what a woman is beyond sex and the matters that come with it. Also, I'm pretty sure I've made my opinions on gender clear. I'm tolerate of people, but I do not have to agree with their personal beliefs, which gender falls under.

I genuinely find it very sad that you see the world like that. That being a woman is a shared history of oppression. What a way to live.

Do you not think that women share a history of oppression at the hands of men? Do you not see it still in action all around the world every day?

@BananasBananas

Kimchi forgive me for being stupid, I just dont get it. Do you find Drag offensive? You still haven't answered that question.

You're not being stupid , the thread has derailed somewhat.

I don't find it offensive personally , no. I don't watch it , I don't have much to do with it. I get why it offends people. That's why I didn't really post in the beginning of the thread - my contributions start and end with the as bad as blackface debate.

If they know full well they are men then why is the quote not
Gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win?

Because their character is a woman!
It wouldn't make sense to say gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win, as they aren't dressing up as a man.
Saying gentlemen shows they know they are men really.
They're not saying they're a woman.

@RedDogsBeg

I genuinely find it very sad that you see the world like that. That being a woman is a shared history of oppression. What a way to live.

Do you not think that women share a history of oppression at the hands of men? Do you not see it still in action all around the world every day?

Yes....but I think that defining ourselves in that manner is sad , in the same way I think that any group of people who defines themselves by their oppressors is sad. We are all people.

But then I'm woke , apparently.

Your overwhelming vibe is very demanding and that people must answer to you and your issue is that I don't and won't.

That's ok, your overwhelming vibe is of someone who's all talk and no action. That's what the internet does unfortunately. I'm sure in your line of academics you don't actually just shut down once someone says something you vehemently disagree with, but you're quite right - you don't have to answer to strangers on the internet if you don't want or feel you can.

Being a woman isn't about looks at all. Its not about having short hair, no makeup, all the make up, plastic surgery or however else a woman chooses to live in her own skin.

However, wearing women's clothes, having fancy hair, doing your nails, being 'fabulous' or any other stereotyped 'female' things in no way makes one a woman.

Absolutely. If I go out tomorrow in a tracksuit, puffer jacket, trainers, no make up and don't do my hair and nails, I will still be a woman, I will still be recognised and treated as a woman. I don't need to dress like a woman because I am one.

@BrumBoo

Your overwhelming vibe is very demanding and that people must answer to you and your issue is that I don't and won't.

That's ok, your overwhelming vibe is of someone who's all talk and no action. That's what the internet does unfortunately. I'm sure in your line of academics you don't actually just shut down once someone says something you vehemently disagree with, but you're quite right - you don't have to answer to strangers on the internet if you don't want or feel you can.

I don't shut down if I vehemently disagree , but I wouldn't engage with someone as offensive as you and your new pal who got personal.

I see you got a final wee 'feel you can' in there. I know you think it's dead clever and all, but it really does nothing other than re inforce my belief of your sheer arrogance even when repeatedly given the facts .

I'd rather be all talk and no action in a pointless debate with a stranger off the internet than actively upset someone with my words , every day of the week and twice on a Sunday.

@Quaagars

If they know full well they are men then why is the quote not Gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win?

Because their character is a woman!
It wouldn't make sense to say gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win, as they aren't dressing up as a man.
Saying gentlemen shows they know they are men really.
They're not saying they're a woman.

The same reason the presenter doesn't call the characters in the masked singer by their actual names.

It's a character.

@Wheresmykimchi, with all due respect, you have seriously over reacted here. I appreciate what I said may have offended you but not to the point where you are reacting like this. Not even sure who my 'pal' is, you're treating an internet forum like it's a personal war. You can believe whatever you want of me, honestly I'll have forgotten your username by the time this thread dies down. You're just another person who gets angry rather than be able to answer a question they apparently know the answer to and move on. You've made it all about you instead, and that certainly does make me question your full knowledge on the subject, considering your reaction is 101 classic of anyone who's asked to expand on what gender is (e.g instantly jump to angry and defensive whilst never actually answering the question). Genuinely though, let that be the last of it, I won't reply to you further as it's obviously enraging for reasons I wont speculate further on.

I think drag is awful. It’s massively misogynistic and I have no doubt that a lot of gay men enjoy it because of this fact. I unfortunately have first hand experience of how much some gay men despise women.

@Quaagars

If they know full well they are men then why is the quote not Gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win?

Because their character is a woman!
It wouldn't make sense to say gentlemen start your engines and may the best man win, as they aren't dressing up as a man.
Saying gentlemen shows they know they are men really.
They're not saying they're a woman.

It's a character.

A character which inevitably happens to be all the stereotypes. Despite all the many other ways to play a woman character.

[quote BrumBoo]@Wheresmykimchi, with all due respect, you have seriously over reacted here. I appreciate what I said may have offended you but not to the point where you are reacting like this. Not even sure who my 'pal' is, you're treating an internet forum like it's a personal war. You can believe whatever you want of me, honestly I'll have forgotten your username by the time this thread dies down. You're just another person who gets angry rather than be able to answer a question they apparently know the answer to and move on. You've made it all about you instead, and that certainly does make me question your full knowledge on the subject, considering your reaction is 101 classic of anyone who's asked to expand on what gender is (e.g instantly jump to angry and defensive whilst never actually answering the question). Genuinely though, let that be the last of it, I won't reply to you further as it's obviously enraging for reasons I wont speculate further on.[/quote]
I've explained several times why I'm enraged you just don't like it. .and you are still questioning me and speculating.

'with all due respect' very good. You've shown me zero.

I might be just another person who gets angry , but you are just another arrogant entitled poster who takes it too far then gaslights and I'm not having it.

Suits me.

Good.

'see you got a final wee 'feel you can' in there. I know you think it's dead clever and all, but it really does nothing other than re inforce my belief of your sheer arrogance even when repeatedly given the facts'

'Arrogance' again? Not me this time phew!

Kimshi either have a robust debate or don't but this attacking people then feeling sorry for yourself when you get a response is, to use your favourite word, bizarre.