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AIBU?

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Original poster

To find drag queens offensive?

999 replies

MrsMummy500 · 12/12/2020 18:39

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

OP posts:
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5
Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:33

[quote BrumBoo]@Wheresmykimchi, so you don't actually have an answer. OK, I mean it's quite a strange thing to both claim you know/teach then get weirdly angry about when asked to explain futher, but that's entirely your perogative. Anyone who actually does have a sound answer about these things are usually quite happy to explain it, especially if it proves someone wrong.

I dont blame you though, everyone I ask to explain gender without resorting to 'people believe' and 'insert x stereotypes here' usually go quiet very quickly.[/quote]
If you use the same tone you used with me I'm not surprised no one wants to engage with you. I'm normally quite happy to explain things too but not to people who behave like you.

Nah , I don't have an answer and the reason I'm not responding to you is I was wholeheartedly lying. Happy? Will you go and needle someone else now?

RedDogsBeg · 13/12/2020 16:34

@Quaagars

They are enforcing stereotypes! This is the crux of the issue, you say you see why women can find it offensive, then say this!

Or you can see it as breaking stereotypes as in what a man should or shouldn't wear, which I'm pretty sure the poster meant.

Breaking stereotypes by men wearing what they want as men.

Men wearing what they want as a parody of women, to ridicule and demean women, or saying that what they are wearing makes them a woman is not breaking stereotypes it is enforcing them.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:35

@BrumBoo I got 'weirdly angry' when you and your pal questioned my ability of my job , but then I don't live in the world you do where people ride rough shod over everyone else and think thats am acceptable way to speak. So you can absolutely think what you like as your opinion matters zilch to me.

Quaagars · 13/12/2020 16:35

Men can wear whatever they want, dresses, makeup, handbags the lot. It's when they appropriate the idea of 'woman' that the issues arise. T

How exactly are you supposed to "woman" anyway?
Why can't they dress up as a "highly sexualised" woman (for want of a better phrase)
eg in high heels, short skirts, low cut tops, loads of make up?
I see even on this thread people are getting all holier than thou because they don't wear make up and about "women wearing slap" (I don't wear it myself but don't tell others what they should or shouldn't do)
In other words actual women get told presumably by other women "what a woman is/should wear."
There's no one way to "be a woman."
Whether you're in no make up, jeans, short hair, boots, whatever, or whether you're in high heels, loads of cleavage, whatever.
So how are they "appropriating womanhood" = when people clearly have different ideas of how a woman should or shouldn't look?!
Which is kind of offensive in itself.

BrumBoo · 13/12/2020 16:35

Nah , I don't have an answer and the reason I'm not responding to you is I was wholeheartedly lying

Weird thing to lie about, but whatever floats your boat Smile.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:36

@BrumBoo

Nah , I don't have an answer and the reason I'm not responding to you is I was wholeheartedly lying

Weird thing to lie about, but whatever floats your boat Smile.

Yes it would be a strange thing to lie about , if I was , as I think even uou know I was being sarcastic , yet you implied that I was and said it was worrying if I am.......Biscuit
Quaagars · 13/12/2020 16:39

@Wheresmykimchi, so you don't actually have an answer

Maybe it's the rolly eyes, the are you 10?, double act! shit that's getting rolled out, with a nice leetle bit of patronising as well that kind of puts people off answering when it's clear many can't cope with alternate opinions.
After about the 500th time of engaging on these type of threads, actually answering questions, you quickly learn that nobody really wants an answer in the first place or they get an answer and they pretend they can't hear or just resort to insults as they have nothing else.

Quaagars · 13/12/2020 16:40

bold fail that was supposed to be a quote

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:40

[quote Quaagars]**@Wheresmykimchi, so you don't actually have an answer

Maybe it's the rolly eyes, the are you 10?, double act! shit that's getting rolled out, with a nice leetle bit of patronising as well that kind of puts people off answering when it's clear many can't cope with alternate opinions.
After about the 500th time of engaging on these type of threads, actually answering questions, you quickly learn that nobody really wants an answer in the first place or they get an answer and they pretend they can't hear or just resort to insults as they have nothing else.[/quote]
Pretty much.
That and when they said it was worrying if I do the job they do. Then they wonder why Im not jumping to their attention and question why people go quiet when they try and ask them questions.
I do question if people actually go on like this in real life.

GetOffYourHighHorse · 13/12/2020 16:41

'Why can't they dress up as a "highly sexualised" woman (for want of a better phrase) eg in high heels, short skirts, low cut tops, loads of make up?'

They can and they do. But we (not all just the majority) are allowed to point out what it is, that it is stereotyping and demeaning to women.

Quaagars · 13/12/2020 16:42

Yes it would be a strange thing to lie about , if I was , as I think even uou know I was being sarcastic

It's clear as day you were being sarcastic, people are just being obtuse for the sake of it so I wouldn't worry about it too much

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:42

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Why can't they dress up as a "highly sexualised" woman (for want of a better phrase) eg in high heels, short skirts, low cut tops, loads of make up?'

They can and they do. But we (not all just the majority) are allowed to point out what it is, that it is stereotyping and demeaning to women.

Changed your mind from 'all women must be against it ' then?
Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:43

@Quaagars

Yes it would be a strange thing to lie about , if I was , as I think even uou know I was being sarcastic

It's clear as day you were being sarcastic, people are just being obtuse for the sake of it so I wouldn't worry about it too much

Cheers. I thought so. But then I suppose theu can't cope with how someone as stupid as me is allowed to teach Grin
BrumBoo · 13/12/2020 16:44

There's no one way to "be a woman."

Being a woman isn't about looks at all. Its not about having short hair, no makeup, all the make up, plastic surgery or however else a woman chooses to live in her own skin.

However, wearing women's clothes, having fancy hair, doing your nails, being 'fabulous' or any other stereotyped 'female' things in no way makes one a woman. Being a woman is not about what you feel, it is in your sex, nothing more. In terms of society, being a woman means having a shared history of oppression by men based on our sex, the same fight to be recognised as equal, that we are not x,y and z personality based on our sex. Being a woman doesn't have anything to do with how our brains think, hence why it's offensive to dress up in 'women' clothing, call yourself a 'woman' and proceed to make the precise crude jokes that we've been fighting against as a sex since women's liberation began.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:46

@BrumBoo

There's no one way to "be a woman."

Being a woman isn't about looks at all. Its not about having short hair, no makeup, all the make up, plastic surgery or however else a woman chooses to live in her own skin.

However, wearing women's clothes, having fancy hair, doing your nails, being 'fabulous' or any other stereotyped 'female' things in no way makes one a woman. Being a woman is not about what you feel, it is in your sex, nothing more. In terms of society, being a woman means having a shared history of oppression by men based on our sex, the same fight to be recognised as equal, that we are not x,y and z personality based on our sex. Being a woman doesn't have anything to do with how our brains think, hence why it's offensive to dress up in 'women' clothing, call yourself a 'woman' and proceed to make the precise crude jokes that we've been fighting against as a sex since women's liberation began.

I can't believe you are actually saying that being a woman means a shared history of being oppressed by men.

Why on earth would you want us to define ourselves as that ?!

jellyfrizz · 13/12/2020 16:47

@Quaagars

Men can wear whatever they want, dresses, makeup, handbags the lot. It's when they appropriate the idea of 'woman' that the issues arise. T

How exactly are you supposed to "woman" anyway?
Why can't they dress up as a "highly sexualised" woman (for want of a better phrase)
eg in high heels, short skirts, low cut tops, loads of make up?
I see even on this thread people are getting all holier than thou because they don't wear make up and about "women wearing slap" (I don't wear it myself but don't tell others what they should or shouldn't do)
In other words actual women get told presumably by other women "what a woman is/should wear."
There's no one way to "be a woman."
Whether you're in no make up, jeans, short hair, boots, whatever, or whether you're in high heels, loads of cleavage, whatever.
So how are they "appropriating womanhood" = when people clearly have different ideas of how a woman should or shouldn't look?!
Which is kind of offensive in itself.

That's the point! There is no one way to be a woman. Which is why stereotypes are regressive and harmful.

Drag queens go all out woman stereotypes. Where are all the sensible shoes, stubbly chin and slacks drag queens?

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:48

We see that across society though.

When was the last time you saw a female presenter on telly with her hair up and jeans on?

BananasBananas · 13/12/2020 16:50

In regards to your first point I never actually answered the OPs question. This debate in recent pages has been about whether it is as offensive as blackface and I don't believe it is. My opinion. And you might not have said all women must find it offensive , but PP did.

But Kimchi, you say it is not as offensive as blackface. I take it that you still view it as offensive then? Just not as far up the scale? And if so, why defend it at all?

BrumBoo · 13/12/2020 16:50

@Quaagars

Yes it would be a strange thing to lie about , if I was , as I think even uou know I was being sarcastic

It's clear as day you were being sarcastic, people are just being obtuse for the sake of it so I wouldn't worry about it too much

Oh give over. Even if you two have been sharing the same opinion throughout your posts (which im not pointing out as a negative), even you must see toys were thrown out of the pram about not explaining something they could very easily do if they actually know about it, academically. Wheresmykimchi went from quite happily engaging with other posters regardless of how antagonistic their posts where, to fully shutting down when ask to explain to someone why they were 'wrong'. Considering some of their replies on this thread, it was quite hypocritical to suddenly throw out the 'I'm offended' line. If they don't have a sufficient explanation to my question, that's absolutely fine. Pretending its because they're suddenly super offended is just (as I said) odd.
BrumBoo · 13/12/2020 16:52

Why on earth would you want us to define ourselves as that

It's not a definition of women as a whole, its a shared history. There is not definition of what it means to be a woman, beyond sex. Hence why gender and all that comes with it (like drag) is offensive bull based on stereotypes.

Quaagars · 13/12/2020 16:53

However, wearing women's clothes, having fancy hair, doing your nails, being 'fabulous' or any other stereotyped 'female' things in no way makes one a woman

Completely agree.
Do those in drag say they are women though?
For example I watched Drag Race (I know, I know) they know fine well they're men.
"Gentlemen, start your engines and may the best lady win!"
They know they're men, they're just expressing themselves, dressing up.
It's a character, an act.
(And to be fair some of that makeup is ace, don't know how they do it lol)
Then when it comes off they're back to themselves as a man.
Same with Widow Twankie. Ugly Sisters. They don't think they really are a woman.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:53

@BananasBananas

In regards to your first point I never actually answered the OPs question. This debate in recent pages has been about whether it is as offensive as blackface and I don't believe it is. My opinion. And you might not have said all women must find it offensive , but PP did.

But Kimchi, you say it is not as offensive as blackface. I take it that you still view it as offensive then? Just not as far up the scale? And if so, why defend it at all?

I never actually did defend it. Not once.

@BrumBoo
There's no pretending here. I worked hard to get where I am . You know nothing about my life. And I was happy to defend myself when it was about a topic that doesn't really affect me day to day , I even took all of the abuse from Get out calling me a misogynist and apologist and homophobic and all the rest of it. But you insulted my ability in my job which is very important to me and I'm afraid that was a step over the line.

In regards to your final point , if you can find anything I've said which is half as offensive as the things thrown at me , I'd be happy to see them. I think you'd struggle.

I do have an explanation to your question, but I think you crossed the line and am therefore not willing to engage you. Your reverse psychology doesn't work on me I'm afraid.

jellyfrizz · 13/12/2020 16:53

When was the last time you saw a female presenter on telly with her hair up and jeans on?

Err, right now, in our house Jodie Whittaker is reading Inspector Hector on CBeebies Bedtime Stories. Her hair is too short to put up though and they may be other trousers, not jeans.

RedDogsBeg · 13/12/2020 16:53

I can't believe you are actually saying that being a woman means a shared history of being oppressed by men.

Why on earth would you want us to define ourselves as that ?!

It's not a definition, it's a fact.

Wheresmykimchi · 13/12/2020 16:54

@BrumBoo

Why on earth would you want us to define ourselves as that

It's not a definition of women as a whole, its a shared history. There is not definition of what it means to be a woman, beyond sex. Hence why gender and all that comes with it (like drag) is offensive bull based on stereotypes.

I genuinely find it very sad that you see the world like that. That being a woman is a shared history of oppression. What a way to live.