To find drag queens offensive?

[MrsMummy500]

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

@BrumBoo

It seems it is okay for one group of oppressed people to be roundly mocked and caricatured and that group is, of course, women.

Misogyny is the last safety net of a society that's letting go of prejudice. Racism, homophobia, disabled and so forth are quite rightly being wiped out. Only arseholes with ridged old fashioned ideologies would disagree.

Fighting against misogyny is a whole other ballgame. Not only are they so ingrained in society that even the most liberal of people fail to see the most obvious signs of it (like here for example), people are falling over themselves to defend it. Angry about Drag Queens taking the piss out of what it means to be a woman? You just don't get it. Being called a 'Karen'? Maybe 'don't act like one'. Dont agree with gender beliefs as it's full of the ugliest side of stereotypes? Bigot.

People simply don't want to acknowledge misogyny is such a huge problem in the world. It makes them angry just to even think the things they enjoy are just as backwards as any other discriminatory shit that got shitcanned years ago. Despite being just as inappropriate as most of the misogynistic ideals that are being positively celebrated are today.

I. Don't. Enjoy. Drag.

'Because your statement that men can handle themselves is simply not true when you look at mental health statistics.'

But that wasn't what was being discussed. It was asked if magic Mike was appropriate (paraphrasing) and my point was men can fight their own battles with regard to inappropriate dance routines.

Separate topic for those struggling to keep up - mental health issues are of course concerning, correct.

@RedDogsBeg

Do you express outrage at dreamboys / male strippers / full monty / ?magic Mike esque routines? I'm fairly sure that these types of events exist purely to demean and sexualise the men

You addressed this question to me Wheresmykimchi so I'll answer:

I have never been, nor would I ever go to one of the above events.

However, are these events extreme, hyper sexualised parodies of men performed by women? Complete with nasty, misandrist 'jokes' aimed at ridiculing men?

You are comparing apples to oranges the type of event you describe is nothing like a drag act.

Yes.

A bride up on stage touching a man in front of everyone , while a group cackles and cheers them on? The 'last hurrrah' sexualising a man?

In womens strip clubs , there are private rooms , security ready to throw out anyone who touches the stripper, serious rules. (I'm not condoning the strip industry at all).

Even on this thread , my first suggestion of men being demeaned was met with a boo hoo for them.

Could you imagine I posted that on a thread about women being demeaned?

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Because your statement that men can handle themselves is simply not true when you look at mental health statistics.'

But that wasn't what was being discussed. It was asked if magic Mike was appropriate (paraphrasing) and my point was men can fight their own battles with regard to inappropriate dance routines.

Separate topic for those struggling to keep up - mental health issues are of course concerning, correct.

No. You were implying that men can fight their own battles when it comes to issues like this.

I reminded you that society tells us they can't.

@Wheresmykimchi I'm not sure why you quoted me there, that last post was just in general and not directed at you.

Regardless, you don't enjoy drag but refuse to acknowledge it's negative effects on women. That's the crux of the issue, whether you enjoy it or not is irrelevant.

[quote BrumBoo]@Wheresmykimchi I'm not sure why you quoted me there, that last post was just in general and not directed at you.

Regardless, you don't enjoy drag but refuse to acknowledge it's negative effects on women. That's the crux of the issue, whether you enjoy it or not is irrelevant.[/quote]
No I know it was in general but given I'm one of only two people against the tide , I imagine it was somewhat directed of me. Your post implied that those of us who don't rail against these things allow misogyny to go unchecked becuase we don't want to lose what we enjoy , which just isn't true in my case.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge it's negative effects on women. I haven't even mentioned that. All I ever said is I don't believe it is comparable to black face.

@Quaagars

The double act that is Kimshi and quaagers are hilarious. Well, hilarious and depressing in equal measure

A double act! Oh give over lol.
TWO people have a differing opinion and are vocal about it instead of just one that you (collective you) can pile on with your belittling, patronising and so it doesn't slide as much as it usually does.
Good.

I hadn't read your post when I wrote mine but how similar maybe we are a good double act after all.

Look, if you asked a group of 100 black people whether they thought "Black face" was acceptable, and 10 said they didnt mind it, would that make it ok, or does the majority opinion not matter?

Same applies to women.

Most women on this thread have expressed how distasteful and offensive Drag is, but apparently that doesnt count because there are a few posters who dont mind it.

It doesnt matter if it is "not as offensive" I mean who decides where things sit on the Scale of Offensivity anyway?!? if women, or even "just" a majority of women decide they find Drag offensive, it is.

Exactly. So why are we this many pages into a thread destroying the men who are (aside from your extreme examples) breaking gender stereotypes....

Because it's not breaking gender stereotypes, it's enforcing them.

Incidentally@GetOffYourHighHorse =if men are to fight their own battles in their dance routines , can only women be against drag acts, then? I'm assuming since you're not allowing women to support men, you wouldn't expect men to support women.

@HotButteredRumPaPumPum

Look, if you asked a group of 100 black people whether they thought "Black face" was acceptable, and 10 said they didnt mind it, would that make it ok, or does the majority opinion not matter?

Same applies to women.

Most women on this thread have expressed how distasteful and offensive Drag is, but apparently that doesnt count because there are a few posters who dont mind it.

It doesnt matter if it is "not as offensive" I mean who decides where things sit on the Scale of Offensivity anyway?!? if women, or even "just" a majority of women decide they find Drag offensive, it is.

But how does that work?

The vibe on this thread is far more that as PP have dictated that it's offensive , going as far as to say that all women must be against it , the two of us who said we don't find it as offensive as other stereotypes are wrong.

You're defending the wrong group here.

Little Britain? Mrs Brown's Boys? Several mainstream comedians? Soaps? The institutionalised homophobia in popular culture? Give over.

Yes, see, you recognise these examples as wrong. Me too.

@jellyfrizz

Exactly. So why are we this many pages into a thread destroying the men who are (aside from your extreme examples) breaking gender stereotypes....

Because it's not breaking gender stereotypes, it's enforcing them.

Men wearing dressed and heels is not enforcing a gender stereotype.

@jellyfrizz

Little Britain? Mrs Brown's Boys? Several mainstream comedians? Soaps? The institutionalised homophobia in popular culture? Give over.

Yes, see, you recognise these examples as wrong. Me too.

Yes....so how can we claim that if a straight man ridiculed a gay man it would be called out when it isn't and remains in media on a daily basis?

'No. You were implying that men can fight their own battles when it comes to issues like this.I reminded you that society tells us they can't.'

No? Oh I think by your very own definition you are arrogant as you've told me you I'm wrong (I'm not obviously).

'Would they? Really?Little Britain? Mrs Brown's Boys? Several mainstream comedians? Soaps? The institutionalised homophobia in popular culture? Give over.'

'Give over' . I think you'll find homophobia is rightly not tolerated. Didn't they apologise for the crap in little britain? It is beyond ironic that an oppressed minority have been successful in turning the tide yet they can't see the problem with drag queens and misogyny.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'No. You were implying that men can fight their own battles when it comes to issues like this.I reminded you that society tells us they can't.'

No? Oh I think by your very own definition you are arrogant as you've told me you I'm wrong (I'm not obviously).

'Would they? Really?Little Britain? Mrs Brown's Boys? Several mainstream comedians? Soaps? The institutionalised homophobia in popular culture? Give over.'

'Give over' . I think you'll find homophobia is rightly not tolerated. Didn't they apologise for the crap in little britain? It is beyond ironic that an oppressed minority have been successful in turning the tide yet they can't see the problem with drag queens and misogyny.

They apologised for the lady sketch and the racism sketch but not some of the others, and I'm pretty sure David Walliams still makes a living every year from pretending to be in love with Simon Cowell....

@GetOffYourHighHorse thousands of people wrote to ofcom over scenes of two men dancing , and scenes of Ste Hay kissing at tea time in Hollyoaks. Gay men on TV are ridiculed on a daily basis in soaps , comedies, in mainstream programmes. And you think homophobia is not institutionalised in our culture? If you think homophobia is not tolerated in our society and culture you are way , way off.

And as for your odd face at give over , I'm not entirely sure why you're now policing my colloquial language. Slippery slope.

'Men wearing dressed and heels is not enforcing a gender stereotype'

No it's just playing dressing up silly!!

'I'm pretty sure David Walliams still makes a living every year from pretending to be in love with Simon Cowell....'

What is wrong with that? He may well be gay or bisexual for all you know. Please don't be homophobic as well as an apologist for misogynists.

Also agree OP. Why is it funny to watch a man dressed as a woman being overly feminine. But not funny to watch a woman dressed as a man being overly masculine. Is it cos women are something to look down upon and laugh at ?

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Men wearing dressed and heels is not enforcing a gender stereotype'

No it's just playing dressing up silly!!

'I'm pretty sure David Walliams still makes a living every year from pretending to be in love with Simon Cowell....'

What is wrong with that? He may well be gay or bisexual for all you know. Please don't be homophobic as well as an apologist for misogynists.

You'd be funny if you weren't so absolutely ridiculous.

A bride up on stage touching a man in front of everyone , while a group cackles and cheers them on? The 'last hurrrah' sexualising a man?

I asked if the performers were women dressed up as an extreme form of a hyper sexualised man as that would be a direct comparison to drag.

In womens strip clubs , there are private rooms , security ready to throw out anyone who touches the stripper, serious rules. (I'm not condoning the strip industry at all).

I don't agree with or condone the strip industry whether it is females or males getting their clothes off.

Even on this thread , my first suggestion of men being demeaned was met with a boo hoo for them.

Men are not demeaned by drag, they are the ones doing the demeaning.

Could you imagine I posted that on a thread about women being demeaned?

Women are being demeaned by drag, you say you don't like it or watch it and in the next breath say the performers are breaking gender stereotypes, which they most definitely are not. All they are doing is parodying and ridiculing women in the most extreme manner and inviting their audience to laugh and equally ridicule the target they are mocking, which for the avoidance of doubt is women.

It is blatant unfettered misogyny.

Exactly. So why are we this many pages into a thread destroying the men who are (aside from your extreme examples) breaking gender stereotypes....

They are enforcing stereotypes! This is the crux of the issue, you say you see why women can find it offensive, then say this!

Breaking gender stereotypes would be to break the idea of gender completely - recognise that people do not behave in certain ways due to the thoughts in their head, that the way you dress and behave, the sex you prefere the company of, the toys you played with as a child - none have a connection to what makes you 'feminine' and 'masculine', that these concepts aren't real! That's the only way to 'break gender stereotypes'.

@RedDogsBeg

A bride up on stage touching a man in front of everyone , while a group cackles and cheers them on? The 'last hurrrah' sexualising a man?

I asked if the performers were women dressed up as an extreme form of a hyper sexualised man as that would be a direct comparison to drag.

In womens strip clubs , there are private rooms , security ready to throw out anyone who touches the stripper, serious rules. (I'm not condoning the strip industry at all).

I don't agree with or condone the strip industry whether it is females or males getting their clothes off.

Even on this thread , my first suggestion of men being demeaned was met with a boo hoo for them.

Men are not demeaned by drag, they are the ones doing the demeaning.

Could you imagine I posted that on a thread about women being demeaned?

Women are being demeaned by drag, you say you don't like it or watch it and in the next breath say the performers are breaking gender stereotypes, which they most definitely are not. All they are doing is parodying and ridiculing women in the most extreme manner and inviting their audience to laugh and equally ridicule the target they are mocking, which for the avoidance of doubt is women.

It is blatant unfettered misogyny.

We don't agree , and I don't think we will, but I appreciate the interesting and respectful points.

Men wearing dressed and heels is not enforcing a gender stereotype.

Of course not, I'm all for men wearing heels and dresses but doing it on stage to parody women for laughs is not the same thing, is it?

@BrumBoo

Exactly. So why are we this many pages into a thread destroying the men who are (aside from your extreme examples) breaking gender stereotypes....

They are enforcing stereotypes! This is the crux of the issue, you say you see why women can find it offensive, then say this!

Breaking gender stereotypes would be to break the idea of gender completely - recognise that people do not behave in certain ways due to the thoughts in their head, that the way you dress and behave, the sex you prefere the company of, the toys you played with as a child - none have a connection to what makes you 'feminine' and 'masculine', that these concepts aren't real! That's the only way to 'break gender stereotypes'.

I've taught gender stereotypes as part of my subject. I am well aware what they are.

We just don't agree in how they play out in relation to drag , and that's fine.