To find drag queens offensive?

[MrsMummy500]

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'You say "we" as though your statement speaks for all women, though'

OK, many. 74% on this thread so we could even say the majority 🙄.

Remember your demographic. Threads like these will always draw in the crowds ready for another round of how dangerous men are.
in the real world I don't think I know anyone with the types of opinions we see in here.

@Wheresmykimchi
Ever considered the fact you wilfully live in an echo chamber? Let me guess: you dont know any brexiters either?

@Wheresmykimchi

I cannot honestly believe that I am reading a comparison of a man dressing up as a woman to black face. Wow.

Blackface taps into horrible stereotypes about non-white people, and helps to 'justify' discrimination and violence against them. Even blackface that is not intended to be hateful reinforces beliefs about black people that keep them disempowered and socially constrained.

And drag does exactly the same to women.

@GoldfishParade

No. Its disgusting and ridiculous and I'm still struggling to understand why it is that BAME gets taken so seriously and women dont.

I'm not a massive fan of the BAME movement as a whole but even I think this comparison is ridiculous.

The BAME movement has come about as a result of racism and segregation across the field , in workplaces , studies , in society - and of course due to countless 'accidental' killings of young BAME people.

Why do women need a campaign in relation to drag queens?

[quote CrotchBurn]@Wheresmykimchi
Ever considered the fact you wilfully live in an echo chamber? Let me guess: you dont know any brexiters either?[/quote]
You really are a very bizarre poster. Not sure of the relevance but of course I know brexiters. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by echo chambers but I'm sure you will enlighten me.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow , I see your point , but I don't think the two are comparable.

Would you say the same about the stripping industry (both male and female - I don't remember the last time I saw any kind of outcry about your Magic Mike , Dreamboys Full Monty industry )?

'in the real world I don't think I know anyone with the types of opinions we see in here.'

I suppose it depends on the intelligence of people you associate with. I dont know one person male or female who doesn't think drag queens are ridiculous, based (as has been said repeatedly) on a caricature and stereotype of women.

Now, like it or not this is in fact as inappropriate as the black and white minstrels. I'm sure there were people like you back in the 70s who thought that was harmless 'fun' too.

@Wheresmykimchi
If you cant understand the link between saying "in the real world I don't think I know anyone with the types of opinions we see in here" and the possibility of you living in an echo chamber, then I think we're probably done here 🤷‍♀️

"I'm not a massive fan of the BAME movement as a whole but even I think this comparison is ridiculous.

The BAME movement has come about as a result of racism and segregation across the field , in workplaces , studies , in society - and of course due to countless 'accidental' killings of young BAME people."

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you suggesting that any of these things still don't routinely happen to women?

The BAME movement has come about as a result of racism and segregation across the field , in workplaces , studies , in society - and of course due to countless 'accidental' killings of young BAME people.

@Wheresmykimchi

And women haven't faced the same??! Do you even know where these segregation and abuse comes from? Its from prejudice and stereotyping of people based on their biology! Black people are abused because they're black, from long history of believing that being black makes you a lesser human, that black people follow stereotypical behaviour and negative personal traits. The exact same has happened and is still happening to girls and women, and that's why drag is offensive! It is perpetuating the very stereotypes about the female sex that we have fought and fought and fought against for hundreds of years. Then people like you come along and decide that women can't possibly know the level of oppression others have. Fucking hell, the delusion.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'in the real world I don't think I know anyone with the types of opinions we see in here.'

I suppose it depends on the intelligence of people you associate with. I dont know one person male or female who doesn't think drag queens are ridiculous, based (as has been said repeatedly) on a caricature and stereotype of women.

Now, like it or not this is in fact as inappropriate as the black and white minstrels. I'm sure there were people like you back in the 70s who thought that was harmless 'fun' too.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I wasn't born in the 70s so I can't really speak for that time but no I wouldn't find it acceptable.

Your wording of 'like it or not it is as inappropriate' is indicative of the current vibe on MN where people ride rough shod over other people with their opinions. You believe it is inappropriate , I don't. neither are wrong nor right but I'm astounded by your arrogance of you telling me what is wrong and right.

Your intelligence commence is ironic. Surely one with as much intelligence as you are implying you have as opposed to the knuckle draggers I associate with is clever enough to understand that people have different opinions based on different backgrounds and environments and that is OK.

[quote CrotchBurn]@Wheresmykimchi
If you cant understand the link between saying "in the real world I don't think I know anyone with the types of opinions we see in here" and the possibility of you living in an echo chamber, then I think we're probably done here 🤷‍♀️[/quote]
Suits me - you've brought nothing into the interaction other than random bizarre comments so im sure I will survive.

@jellyfrizz , no, of course not. im well versed in the statistics on the treatment of women. But until a drag queen police force start killing women in broad daylight , I'm not seeing the connection.

@BrumBoo I didn't actually say that women can't understand the oppression other people go through so I'm not sure why you're putting words in my mouth. I understand your point in regards to women's rights , I'm just not sure why that means women should be this angry about drag queens. And as said on the endless thread in relation to women and men earlier , and further up in this very thread , there is an unpleasant vibe on MN at the moment where posters ride rough shod and insult other people based on their views of women being treated badly , and it's not pleasant. And incidentally going against your cause as you are completely dismissing my views (as a woman ) because they're not the same as yours.

'You believe it is inappropriate , I don't. neither are wrong nor right but I'm astounded by your arrogance of you telling me what is wrong and right.'

Well no, you are wrong. That isn't arrogance it is fact.

Predominantly gay men shouldn't dress up as caricatures if women and use offensive terminology regarding female genitalia. It is misogynistic crap. HTH.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'You believe it is inappropriate , I don't. neither are wrong nor right but I'm astounded by your arrogance of you telling me what is wrong and right.'

Well no, you are wrong. That isn't arrogance it is fact.

Predominantly gay men shouldn't dress up as caricatures if women and use offensive terminology regarding female genitalia. It is misogynistic crap. HTH.

It is outstandingly arrogant to tell another human being they are wrong.

You speak like a child. I'm surprised you didn't add 'the end'.

And as became clear on the other thread , people wonder why their voices aren't heard in relation to issues like this. Its because they speak like you do. If you think any of that post has made me go away and think ahh I was wrong about them drag queens , you are sadly mistaken.

Women shouldn't put down other women , dismiss them and make them feel stupid for having a different opinion. HTH.

Are you new to AIBU @Wheresmykimchi? Because it’s always been known for ‘robust debate’ on all matters.

No one is unreasonable to find anything at all offensive.
I'm a woman , I enjoy watching drag queens I find the jokes funny and I like watching them put on make up as I think it's very clever .
I dont want to be called unreasonable for enjoying something that other people may not .each to their own and all that .

I enjoyed Ru Paul's drag race until recently. Something has shifted in me. I suppose I'm fed up with womanhood always being free to appropriate while everything else is argued over or offensive. But women are raised to be polite and socially accepting so we just invite everyone into our space (or rather, that's what we are supposed to do - never mind that some of us are questioning that logic). I can't watch it any more. I do think they're funny and often talented, but...

@jellyfrizz

Are you new to AIBU *@Wheresmykimchi*? Because it’s always been known for ‘robust debate’ on all matters.

No, I've been around for a while. but I've found it particularly bad in the last wee while.

@Dontforgetyourbrolly I agree . I don't actually enjoy it. I don't watch it to enjoy it. but I don't agree with the vitriol towards it. Each to their own.

@jellyfrizz

"I'm not a massive fan of the BAME movement as a whole but even I think this comparison is ridiculous.

The BAME movement has come about as a result of racism and segregation across the field , in workplaces , studies , in society - and of course due to countless 'accidental' killings of young BAME people."

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you suggesting that any of these things still don't routinely happen to women?

Not to mention 50% of the BAME community ARE women!

'You speak like a child. I'm surprised you didn't add 'the end'. And as became clear on the other thread , people wonder why their voices aren't heard in relation to issues like this. Its because they speak like you do'

Oh grow up, stop wibbling over perfectly reasonable posts and look at the actual issue. There shouldn't be any woman who thinks gross caricatures of women are funny or acceptable in this day and age. Unless you're a misogynist or apologist of course.

@sashagabadon Yep, I get that , but you can't just lump everything in together a la 50 percent of the BAME population and many women don't like drag acts therefore it affects them too therefore the two causes are connected and must be treated the same way.

I'm massively passionate about male mental health which also affects half of BAME but apart from the odd campaign is largely ignored by society. But I don't use thr BAME campaign to promote it as they're not the same thing.

@Wheresmykimchi

I'm just not sure why that means women should be this angry about drag queens.

As it's been explained several times, its because drag queens are men who are stereotyping women for a cheap laugh. It is the equivalent of white people doing the same to other races, the oppressor taking the piss out of their oppressed. Men have a history of oppression against women, and still do so. For men to make a caricature of a woman and tell us we're have to respect it as a lifestyle? Seriously, are you not getting why this is offensive?

And as said on the endless thread in relation to women and men earlier , and further up in this very thread , there is an unpleasant vibe on MN at the moment where posters ride rough shod and insult other people based on their views of women being treated badly , and it's not pleasant. And incidentally going against your cause as you are completely dismissing my views (as a woman ) because they're not the same as yours.

You are entitled to your view. However, you are completely dismissing WHY women on here find stereotyping women by men as offensive, and the comparison to white people parodying others races as valid. When asking people why its not ok to parody and stereotype any other group, but doing so to women is absolutely find you simply having got an answer. There is no critical thinking applied, just 'well I don't agree with you, so you're being ridiculous, humourless and bitter'.

I'm not a fan of drag, I don't find it funny personally. I take the point about "woman face" but I think the less things that get cancelled the better.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'You speak like a child. I'm surprised you didn't add 'the end'. And as became clear on the other thread , people wonder why their voices aren't heard in relation to issues like this. Its because they speak like you do'

Oh grow up, stop wibbling over perfectly reasonable posts and look at the actual issue. There shouldn't be any woman who thinks gross caricatures of women are funny or acceptable in this day and age. Unless you're a misogynist or apologist of course.

Ah yes. That old chestnut. If I don't agree with your views I'm a misogynist or apologist.

Interesting that the one throwing the misogynistic /sexist card is the one claiming that all women should think and feel the same thing and have the same opinion. Are you aware of the definition of sexism?

@Wheresmykimchi
How can you accuse another poster of talking like a child when your response to me asking if you were 10 years old was "Are only ten years old allowed to use the word wow? What a bizarre comment."

Between that and your outrage re blackface but complaceny re drag, I can only recommend you work on your logic

[quote BrumBoo]@Wheresmykimchi

I'm just not sure why that means women should be this angry about drag queens.

As it's been explained several times, its because drag queens are men who are stereotyping women for a cheap laugh. It is the equivalent of white people doing the same to other races, the oppressor taking the piss out of their oppressed. Men have a history of oppression against women, and still do so. For men to make a caricature of a woman and tell us we're have to respect it as a lifestyle? Seriously, are you not getting why this is offensive?

And as said on the endless thread in relation to women and men earlier , and further up in this very thread , there is an unpleasant vibe on MN at the moment where posters ride rough shod and insult other people based on their views of women being treated badly , and it's not pleasant. And incidentally going against your cause as you are completely dismissing my views (as a woman ) because they're not the same as yours.

You are entitled to your view. However, you are completely dismissing WHY women on here find stereotyping women by men as offensive, and the comparison to white people parodying others races as valid. When asking people why its not ok to parody and stereotype any other group, but doing so to women is absolutely find you simply having got an answer. There is no critical thinking applied, just 'well I don't agree with you, so you're being ridiculous, humourless and bitter'.[/quote]
I didn't actually at any point say I didn't understand why people find it offensive. I simply said I don't find it as offensive as black face. I stand by that.

I never used the words ridiculous ,humourless or bitter either. And I didn't dismiss anyone's views - PP dismissed mine.