To find drag queens offensive?

[MrsMummy500]

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

@BrumBoo yes thanks for this. I think you’re right. This othering will only lead to baaaaad things in the future IMHO.

@ARoseDowntown

I’ve never seen drag queens as trying to ape women. They’re so far off the Mark of a real woman, that they’re their own genre. Some people find that genre entertaining. I never have, but to each their own.

So, in short, given I don’t see them as anything like women I don’t feel bothered by them.

I have a similar view.

I don't see drag queens as being woman or trying to be woman. I see them as caricaturing ideas of extreme femininity. And I don't see performing femininity as a woman's trait. Women do it, men do it.

I do think they are a bit tedious though

*what I learnt is that the gay scene is characterised by two features that surprised me, which you'll find in straight men too, because it's about masculinity:

1. A much more aggressive dating scene
2. Misogyny*

Not surprising at all. The misogyny in the gay male scene is visceral. I used to work in Soho and would walk to Charing Cross every day through that area, it has lots of gay bars and I would occasionally get hissed at, sworn at, pushed out of the way, walked into really hard so I was nearly knocked over etc. by gay men who really hated seeing women on the street. I got very good at being able to anticipate the men who were targeting me and dodging them just before they walked into me - one actually swore at me for dodging round him, because I'd deprived him of the pleasure of banging into me!

Honestly, they used to remind me of the men in the Regent's Park mosque who would also swear at women who they felt weren't dressed modestly. The difference being that the Regent's Park misogynists left women alone in winter (because they were all wearing coats so covered up) while the gay men of Soho hated you all year round.

And the thing is, gay men know this vicious misogyny is part of gay male culture and they don't challenge it from within, with a few honorable exceptions they accept it and play along with it.

I agree that misogyny is so endemic in our society that we don't even notice it. The example of the huge fuss about the word 'faggot' in FNY whilst the word 'slut' goes entirely unnoticed is just one example of this.

Another is the fact that 2 women a week (more since we have had lockdown) are murdered by their partner or ex partner in this country, but what everyone is focusing on when it comes to 'hate crime' is referring to an adult human with XY chromosomes and a penis as 'he'. That is what must be stamped out, the women being murdered and raped at horrifying rates is just inevitable it seems 🤷‍♀️

And drag is just another example. Taking the piss out of women is fine and in fact a positive thing because, well... Theyre just women innit. It's just a hit of harmless fun. And anyone woman who objects is just 'bitter' apparently.

@BrumBoo

The space has got wider, you’re correct. It’s grown wider for LGBTQ+, not for heteronormative women and maybe even lesbians.

No maybe about it. The moment some lesbians were called bigots for not wanting to have relationships/sexual relations with male bodied people who identify as female, their space was taken as well.

As for the space getting bigger for LGBT people, it really hasn't. Anyone of any non hetro or 'gender conforming' identity now all get lumped in together, like they're all one single entity. No one is gay or bi anymore, they're a memeber of the Alphabet Group, even if you share nothing in common other than having a 'queer' label. Same goes with BAME, it's all positive reinforcement of 'othering' people, putting us all into boxes that can be ticked off as the ideology of stereotyping takes precedence over individuality of personality.

Excellent post Brumboo. When will people realise that all these “diversity” boxes is about creating separation. People losing their individuality, being told how they should see themselves, which group they belong to. How other people should see others and how separate we all are.

Time to stop putting people in boxes. Respect people for who they are not what they are!

@Passmeabottlemrjones

I agree that misogyny is so endemic in our society that we don't even notice it. The example of the huge fuss about the word 'faggot' in FNY whilst the word 'slut' goes entirely unnoticed is just one example of this.

Another is the fact that 2 women a week (more since we have had lockdown) are murdered by their partner or ex partner in this country, but what everyone is focusing on when it comes to 'hate crime' is referring to an adult human with XY chromosomes and a penis as 'he'. That is what must be stamped out, the women being murdered and raped at horrifying rates is just inevitable it seems 🤷‍♀️

And drag is just another example. Taking the piss out of women is fine and in fact a positive thing because, well... Theyre just women innit. It's just a hit of harmless fun. And anyone woman who objects is just 'bitter' apparently.

Yes @Passmeabottlemrjones - I despair at the real violence to women which is ignored daily and yet women journalists and on Twitter etc write about the "literal violence" that trans women experience - as if natal women don't experience violence at all . And the way violence against women is downplayed as being "part of life" - why should we put up with this, why should we put up with any of this? And it all starts with men hating women, which is expressed for entertainment in drag.

I find the idea that Mrs Brown is perfectly fine but that Ru Paul type modern drag queens are not to be completely hypocritical. Either it’s never fine to play a woman when you aren’t one, or it’s ok. I also don’t hold that Mrs Brown is somehow more ‘genuine’ than any other drag queen as many of them seem to say their alter egos are depicting their inner selves that they can’t be in normal life. 🤷🏼‍♀️

For every ‘sexy’ feminine drag queen, there is a surreal one who doesn’t even look human, let alone female. There are some famous drag kings out there as well. Look up Landon Cider.

Lastly, when I saw Drag Story time advertised locally, it was hosted by two women - one in female drag and a woman being a drag king. Where do people stand on that I wonder?

I find the idea that Mrs Brown is perfectly fine but that Ru Paul type modern drag queens are not to be completely hypocritical.

You are choosing to completely miss the point. The person who plays Mrs Brown doesn't ever allude to having another 'feminine' personality, or being in anyway an actual woman. He is an actor, like Eddie Redmayne playing a transwoman doesn't make him trans. Appropiating a role? Maybe, definitely arguable. Same with straight actors playing gay roles (Robin Williams in The Birdcage?).

As I said, Mrs Brown is a character with an actual believable female experience. That being said, if it was 'cancelled' along with all other female-played-by-males act then so be it. As long as they all get cancelled.

I’ve just seen that on the forthcoming series of Ru Paul there is a female to male trans person who is also a drag queen... now is that more or less offensive... 🤔🤯

I've always felt uncomfortable by drag acts. I wouldn't chose to watch one....but sometimes I've inadvertently ended up suffering a drag show. I find them offensive to women. Feels like they're taking the piss. Not sure why I'm not "allowed" to have that view in the woke world.

I genuinely don't get why it's any different to blacking up. I've never read anything which persuades me otherwise. Drag is (often) a grotesque interpretation of womanhood, with sexual innuendos and crass jokes thrown in for measure. Not funny.

I love a good drag show actually, I don't find it offensive at all, no different to panto dames. They are not pretending they are biologically women it's just comedy. But I wouldn't be offended by a dark skinned person "whiting" if they so desire for comedy, all in the context I suppose, I'm not easily offended

As for saying drag queens are trans, some are, most aren't, a few are actually straight! There's also females who dress up in drag (as women not men). I've seen quite a few women in real life who are almost as dressed up btw the false lashes, pumped up lips, over the top dresses, any northern city (not in covid) middle aged event (and yes I always looked out of place in my black dress, I have many dresses all black))

People's awareness is evolving and I do think (hopefully) not too long the overt sexualised drag style will be seen same as black face.

The likes of Lorraine Kelly are a dangerous breed with their wish to be seen as "cool wife" type. Perhaps if she was telling gay men why they should be happy with TV showing endless parodies of themselves as camp/effeminate played by straight guys on mainstream TV.

We moved on from that in the 70s, time for women to be "allowed" to say it really isn't funny.....(as if needs saying).

@Melamine

I find the idea that Mrs Brown is perfectly fine but that Ru Paul type modern drag queens are not to be completely hypocritical. Either it’s never fine to play a woman when you aren’t one, or it’s ok. I also don’t hold that Mrs Brown is somehow more ‘genuine’ than any other drag queen as many of them seem to say their alter egos are depicting their inner selves that they can’t be in normal life. 🤷🏼‍♀️

For every ‘sexy’ feminine drag queen, there is a surreal one who doesn’t even look human, let alone female. There are some famous drag kings out there as well. Look up Landon Cider.

Lastly, when I saw Drag Story time advertised locally, it was hosted by two women - one in female drag and a woman being a drag king. Where do people stand on that I wonder?

Where I stand this is this entirely makes the point. Women feeling the should join in the whole fucked up mess. It’s like a black person in the 60s feeling they should laugh along at the racist joke. It’s become so normalised,many people can’t apply their brains any more. Women dressing up as men? Well it’s the difference between a person doing black face and wearing say African tribal clothing and a black woman having her hair straightened and skin lightened.

Like Miss Piggy, who has always been voiced by a man. They tell the audience how beautiful and desirable they are, they make jokes about having male members of the audience in the dressing room with them ("he was banging on the door and yelling so much, in the end I had to let him out!"), the shoe fitting scene usually involves a comically huge stocking that seems to go on forever. They're the only ones who do this, and the entire point is that they're not women, don't look OR ACT like women, and everything they wear and do makes them look LESS like women

Well, that's the most offensive statement yet. Miss Piggy is awesome, and definitely all woman so we'll have less of that please!!!

I find the idea that Mrs Brown is perfectly fine but that Ru Paul type modern drag queens are not to be completely hypocritical. Either it’s never fine to play a woman when you aren’t one, or it’s ok

How do you work that out? There is a huge difference between playing a character and parodying an offensive stereotype. That's recognised, even with blacking up - seeing Olivier made up as Othello or Ben Kingsley as Gandhi feels uncomfortable now, but no one has seriously suggested that they were taking the piss out of the characters they played.

If I saw a male actor playing the role of a woman, I would be that the role hadn't gone to a female actor, as they get fewer parts, but it wouldn't be offensive, any more than it's offensive for Fiona Shaw to play male Shakespearean roles.

What's wrong with saying a natural female doesn't have to go tour her face to look female?
It's stating a fact

'Yes, it's stating a fact to say a female doesn't have to contour her face to look female, I'm one myself and never wear make up.
Can you and the others who were telling the poster that it was ridiculous to take make up tips from someone they disagreed with (drag queen) - not see that it is none of your bloody business what she does, who she takes tips from?
She said herself on self conscious days she feels better in make up, and the people she follows on social media (youtube?) can't find the post now help her.
It IS fucking rude and mysogynistic to patronise other women and tell them what they should and shouldn't be doing, how is you telling someone how to "woman right" any better?

Where I stand this is this entirely makes the point. Women feeling the should join in the whole fucked up mess

Why can it not just be that it is SOMETHING THEY WANT TO DO FOR THEMSELVES?!
You automatically go to "well, they feel they have to laugh along, get involved!" errrr..... maybe, just maybe, they have minds of their own?!

I cannot honestly believe that I am reading a comparison of a man dressing up as a woman to black face. Wow.

@Wheresmykimchi
What does "wow" mean? Are you 10 years old?

I cannot honestly believe that I am reading a comparison of a man dressing up as a woman to black face. Wow

Yep = common on MN, as there's threads practically every week asking the same question "is drag offensive" and they always descend into the same blackface argument so I'm not surprised anymore!

What does "wow" mean? Are you 10 years old?

[quote CrotchBurn]@Wheresmykimchi
What does "wow" mean? Are you 10 years old?[/quote]
Are only ten years old allowed to use the word wow? What a bizarre comment.

@Quaagars ,. Glad I'm not alone. I came on the thread expecting the majority to say OP is unreasonable. This is bonkers.

@Quaagars

I cannot honestly believe that I am reading a comparison of a man dressing up as a woman to black face. Wow

Yep = common on MN, as there's threads practically every week asking the same question "is drag offensive" and they always descend into the same blackface argument so I'm not surprised anymore!

@Quaagars, I'm still interested in an answer to the question I ask you yesterday that you've continued to ignore.

Why is it not ok to stereotype black people (or any other group) through visual or any other sort of entertainment, but it is ok to do so when it's 'play acting' women? Why is that less offensive?

If you disagree with the 'blackface' argument, do you think it's ok to play an exaggerated stereotype of any other group, played by people who are not of that sex/sexuality/culture?

Doesn’t offended me in the slightest. Everyone being offended by everything offends me far more.