To find drag queens offensive?

[MrsMummy500]

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

'YABVU. And narrow minded, and IMHO, bitter.'

Narrow minded and 'bitter'. Yeah right.

Listen, the subject of what is being parodied and mimicked are allowed to object.

In years to come drag acts will rightly be a thing of the past and people will wonder how tf they were tolerated for so long,

I never watched more than one episode of Mrs Browns Boys because I watched one episode and thought it was awful so I couldn't say if it has misogynistic undertones

YABVU. And narrow minded, and IMHO, bitter

Yes because when a woman objects to anything she's bitter. Or jealous.

@berrygirlie

Slurring language has had a lot of recent interest, but the focus has been almost exclusively on racial slurs. Gendered pejoratives, on the other hand—terms like "slut," "bitch," or "sissy"—do not fit into existing accounts of slurring terms, as these accounts require the existence of neutral correlates, which, I argue, these gendered pejoratives lack. (From "Gendered Slurs" journal article by Lauren Ashwell.)

Slut is an insult and potentially socially a slur, but you'd be more likely to get done for homophobic comments like calling someone a fggot. I'm fully aware who it's used against, and I'm commonly the intended recipient for the word "slut", Sasha* so don't tell me to give my head a wobble.

If you have been called a slut then you’ll know it’s a horrible word and an insult ( no matter what the official dictionary definition) I’ve been called a slut too a few times, mostly when out with my friends having fun in my younger years and once by a taxi driver as I got out of the car which I found shocking as we’d been chatting ok n journey- I assume it was because I was a female going home at 2am in the morning) So hopefully we can both agree that the f word AND the S word are offensive and used with menace against the recipient whomever they are

I definitely agree with everything you've said in that post, Sasha. It's a derogatory and unkind word that no-one ever uses for a man, my point was that it's not often considered a slur in the context of serious repercussions unfortunately. E.g. if you said the f slur or the n slur in a high powered or public-facing position even if you were in your free time then that could probably be grounds for termination, whereas calling someone a slut might raise an eyebrow but might not be seen as hate speech (also how we had to put up with Donald Trump's "grab them by the pussy" crass garbage for four years).

I think that’s with reference to the library and school reading visits (to promote diversity - but for what exactly?) and any queries being treated like hideous bigotry. Some ‘readers’ have been shown to be really inappropriate adult entertainers (easily findable on social media - which of course the children will do), and there have been photos of them in inappropriate activity (rolling in the floor, flashing bare nethers, twerking with toddlers, even a video of a small girl with a writhing ‘private dance’ at her birthday with the adults bopping as she looked stunned...) and I’ve seen reports of some in the US who have been found to had police records that would mean they shouldn’t be working a million miles of children. Yet queries about the relevance of a over dressed, horribly characterised version of a woman reading books to small kids are knocked back, and I’m still not exactly sure what benefit they are supposed to have (they are generally reported as ‘inclusive’ so why not get someone disabled, blind reading Braille, a Woman firefighter... then?)

The predominant audience of drag queens is gay men, though. Straight men - for the very most part - are not interested. Neither at gay women, on the whole. Gay men seem to like being able to laugh at women

Agree - sadly, as I have many gay male friends. I think drag's origins are in the historical discrimination against gay men, and in an outlet for men to express themselves in ways that are usually denied to men. But that's not what drag is now. In many cases, it is now cover for men to express hatred and contempt for women.

To all those saying it's not offensive, would the BBC show women parodying gay men in the same way as drag queens parody women? If not, why not?

Well maybe it should be berry. Like the pp said, f word removed from fairytales New York but not s word. Why is that?
Personally I think song should be left alone but if you remove one, why not the other?

Unfortunately several million people disagree with you because they watch Mrs Browns Boys.

Mrs Brown is not really drag a la "Ru Paul's drag race" or ladyboys of Bangkok, is it?

It's a parody of a middle aged granny; very plain, very ordinary clothing, very "unsexual".
The humour is supposed to come partly from said granny being a bit rough around the edges, cursing etc.

It's a bit of an Irish/Northern Irish cultural humour thing - there's another performer called May Mcfettridge who does a similar act, and the middle aged women/grannies (always played by women however, I believe) in Father Ted are along similar lines. It's a parody of hair in rollers, housecoat wearing, house-slipper wearing, support stocking wearing, long suffering, centre of the family, house wife/granny types that are familiar toany Irish people (and no doubt they have their British equivalent) and how they supposedly behave (along with the added comedy of coarseness/cursing).
I suppose it would be a parody of "Nonnas" if it was Italy.

It's very different from "glamourous", fetishized fake femininity and often suggeste/sexual stage names, jokes etc.

Whether it's actually derogatory/offensive units own separate way is another story.

(Incidentally I find Mrs brown's boys unfunny and cringy).

@mamatolilbear

YABVU. And narrow minded, and IMHO, bitter.

And people like yourself have become so open minded, your brains have fallen out. Can you explain what you mean by 'bitter'?

Yes it needs to be consigned to same category as blackface. If men want to wear make up and dress sparkly, do it as gender non conforming men rather than men deriding women. Why should be tolerate men wearing women as a costume as either trans or as drag queens when they cant respect our boundaries .

@Sandals19

Unfortunately several million people disagree with you because they watch Mrs Browns Boys.

Mrs Brown is not really drag a la "Ru Paul's drag race" or ladyboys of Bangkok, is it?

It's a parody of a middle aged granny; very plain, very ordinary clothing, very "unsexual".
The humour is supposed to come partly from said granny being a bit rough around the edges, cursing etc.

It's a bit of an Irish/Northern Irish cultural humour thing - there's another performer called May Mcfettridge who does a similar act, and the middle aged women/grannies (always played by women however, I believe) in Father Ted are along similar lines. It's a parody of hair in rollers, housecoat wearing, house-slipper wearing, support stocking wearing, long suffering, centre of the family, house wife/granny types that are familiar toany Irish people (and no doubt they have their British equivalent) and how they supposedly behave (along with the added comedy of coarseness/cursing).
I suppose it would be a parody of "Nonnas" if it was Italy.

It's very different from "glamourous", fetishized fake femininity and often suggeste/sexual stage names, jokes etc.

Whether it's actually derogatory/offensive units own separate way is another story.

(Incidentally I find Mrs brown's boys unfunny and cringy).

Completely agree. Mrs Brown boys is the Irish mammy trope and that’s where the comedy lies ( if you like that sort of thing ) Not sexual at all or meant to be or even in a wink wink way. Posters equating mrs brown boys with hyper sexual drag queens are barking up the wrong tree as an argument

Gay men seem to like being able to laugh at women

Yes I've found in my personal experience that gay men can be extremely misogynistic, I wish women would see that they are not always our allies. And I've never seen any fight for women's rights like women fought for theirs

@BrumBoo

It would be if the act involved putting on negative traits stereotypically associated with women. Instead, the characters portrayed by drag queens are almost always confident, bold and outspoken, and often sexually liberated too, and these are good things.

Jesus the brainwashing in society about why shit like this is 'positive' is absolutely fucking horrifying. This is how men want women to be seen, the same men who have created a culture where when we are 'outspoken', they make memes about how we're 'Karens'. You literally cannot make this shit up.

People have been brainwashed into thinking it's acceptable to openly mock women.

It's a parody of a middle aged granny; very plain, very ordinary clothing, very "unsexual". The humour is supposed to come partly from said granny being a bit rough around the edges, cursing etc.

The humour of Mrs Brown's Boys is certainly very subjective. However, it is the only time I can think of a man representing a woman as an true experience. Whoever he's representing as Mrs Brown, he obviously knew her. Maybe it was his mother, or grandmother, but he knew a woman in his life who was left widowed, in poverty with many children and no help due to being a woman alone in the world. Could a woman play the part as he writes it? Quite possibly, but it's one example I can forgive as (beyond the crude jokes) he seems to actually see that the world has been cruel to women at times. There's a part in the film that's quite heartbreaking, and explains a lot of this background.

'The predominant audience of drag queens is gay men, though. Straight men - for the very most part - are not interested. Neither at gay women, on the whole. Gay men seem to like being able to laugh at women'

Yes and when we complain we are of course being homophobic. Tv presenters like Lorraine Kelly fawn over them as if they are heroes. Why?!

@DidoLamenting

NiceGerbil I mean I don't need to contour my face with loads of slap to look female. Because I'm female

Charming. And you think drag queens are misogynistic? They could take lessons from self- righteous feminists like you.

What's wrong with saying a natural female doesn't have to go tour her face to look female? It's stating a fact

Sorry. In a most un pc way, I generally find them bloody hilarious.

Contour

@BrumBoo

It's a parody of a middle aged granny; very plain, very ordinary clothing, very "unsexual". The humour is supposed to come partly from said granny being a bit rough around the edges, cursing etc.

The humour of Mrs Brown's Boys is certainly very subjective. However, it is the only time I can think of a man representing a woman as an true experience. Whoever he's representing as Mrs Brown, he obviously knew her. Maybe it was his mother, or grandmother, but he knew a woman in his life who was left widowed, in poverty with many children and no help due to being a woman alone in the world. Could a woman play the part as he writes it? Quite possibly, but it's one example I can forgive as (beyond the crude jokes) he seems to actually see that the world has been cruel to women at times. There's a part in the film that's quite heartbreaking, and explains a lot of this background.

Yes exactly. The actor IS mrs brown and we supposed to see a Irish mammy NOT a man dressed as an Irish Mamie. There are sexual innuendo jokes between the other characters but not aimed at or involving mrs brown as a man dressed as a woman. Anyway enough about mrs brown

@mamatolilbear
If it helps you, yes, I have spent lots of time with drag queens and a woman (remain nameless) who dresses as drag queen. They are people with whom i associate with due to my work and the people with whom I work.

I don’t like their acts. Whilst individually when not in drag I found them to be gentle beings, who demand love and care and attention, I do not condone their fetishisation of what it is to be a woman; or even what it is to be a man dressing as woman. I despise the comments about female genitalia. I despise the fact the the room laughs when the act talks about being a slut, or when they got so wet they walked around like a snail.

And I’m bloody well allowed to be. I am the subject of their mockery. It should not be acceptable to do this is in the name of inclusivity.

The space has got wider, you’re correct. It’s grown wider for LGBTQ+, not for heteronormative women and maybe even lesbians.

To talk about drag kings is a side issue. It has no relevance, first because the number game doesn’t add up and second because their acts don’t usually include utter derision and slurs on men.

Totally agree OP. All this stuff about Strictly really pissed me off. The woke brigade falling themselves “it’s 2020 -get over yourselves”, #celebrating diversity” blah blah blah.

IMO it’s exactly the same as black facing. Yet another hypocritical agenda of the BBC showing the power of certain pressure groups and once more indicating women don’t matter. Better to push the agenda of very small minorities than 51% of the population though where there might actually be a challenge to the patriarchal hierarchy!

YANBU Op - hate drag queens and always have. No idea how it's acceptable at all to make such a mockery of women as doing it against any other marginalised group would not be allowed.

Very well said @Ihatefish

The space has got wider, you’re correct. It’s grown wider for LGBTQ+, not for heteronormative women and maybe even lesbians.

No maybe about it. The moment some lesbians were called bigots for not wanting to have relationships/sexual relations with male bodied people who identify as female, their space was taken as well.

As for the space getting bigger for LGBT people, it really hasn't. Anyone of any non hetro or 'gender conforming' identity now all get lumped in together, like they're all one single entity. No one is gay or bi anymore, they're a memeber of the Alphabet Group, even if you share nothing in common other than having a 'queer' label. Same goes with BAME, it's all positive reinforcement of 'othering' people, putting us all into boxes that can be ticked off as the ideology of stereotyping takes precedence over individuality of personality.