To find drag queens offensive?

[MrsMummy500]

AIBU to find drag queens really bloody offensive?

I hate the term offensive, it’s bandied around far too often at far too insignificant things (am aware this may be one of them). BUT, men dressing up as some fetishised version of a man made ideal of a woman really pisses me off. Hyper hair, max make up, drink in hand, revealing clothes.

I do not know a single woman like that. It riles me and I feel like I’m unable to express it as women have lost so much of their space to LGBTQ+ community (I perceive this, I don’t say it as a fact).
potential bomb drop alert but if white people are taken down (rightly IMO) for ‘blacking up’ should it be acceptable for men to parody women in the form of drag queens.

Ps- I do not buy for one minute that they are celebrating the female form with balloon breasts. It feels more like a piss take.

I mean I don't need to contour my face with loads of slap to look female. Because I'm female.

I'm glad you don't need "loads of slap" (thank you, very kindly put) but I enjoy doing different kinds of makeup.

The drag queens I am subscribed to also have a lot of information about eye makeup and usually do things away from "naturally pretty, gold smoky eye" which doesn't always convey how I want to be perceived. I've learned a lot of blending tricks from drag queens.

NiceGerbil
I mean I don't need to contour my face with loads of slap to look female. Because I'm female

Charming. And you think drag queens are misogynistic? They could take lessons from self- righteous feminists like you.

You said you picked up facial feminisation tips.

The very idea that women are getting makeup tips from men on how to look female is bonkers.

And yes drag queens wear a shit ton of slap. That's a given, surely.

So women with women's faces don't look women enough and so need to take tips from men who are parodying women.

How the fuck did we get here.

I have to agree actually eeven though I do love ru Paul's drag race I can acknowledge that by portraying our stereotypes as a performance seems wrong on so many levels

???

So women only look like women if they have faces like... What exactly?

Men with makeup on?

My mum doesn't wear makeup, she's obviously female.

What is mysoginist about saying women look like women?

*You said you picked up facial feminisation tips.

The very idea that women are getting makeup tips from men on how to look female is bonkers*

Yes, I also picked up tips on how to make my lips bigger and my cheekbones higher and where to put my blush. A lot of modern makeup IS about making yourself look more feminine, I've just put the label to that abstract idea in this context.

It's about my own self-perception, not about how I'm perceived. I am consciously aware that I actually have a small nose and jaw (and look feminine naturally) but I can't switch off those thoughts on an insecure day and so instead do things to combat it - same as everyone else, or so I thought. My makeup isn't as heavy as a typical drag queen's, but I can utilise some of their tips and tricks to make my face more feminine.

I'm not sure what the issue with that is.

@NiceGerbil

You said you picked up facial feminisation tips.

The very idea that women are getting makeup tips from men on how to look female is bonkers.

And yes drag queens wear a shit ton of slap. That's a given, surely.

So women with women's faces don't look women enough and so need to take tips from men who are parodying women.

How the fuck did we get here.

It really is none of your business who berrygirlie takes make up tips from.

Saying that berrygirlie wear "slap" is pretty unpleasant and misogynistic.

Thank you, Dido. I promise I do tend to resemble a normal human being (most of the time)

Women look like women. Middle aged women, old women, women with shaved heads, or big hair or whatever.

Obviously the beauty standards are ridiculous. And we're taught to be insecure to get us to buy shit.

But in the end a woman's face is female. The idea that we have to have. What face? Exactly? To look acceptable. Does my mum need to get on this contouring stuff? To look female?

The idea that we have to have. What face? Exactly? To look acceptable. Does my mum need to get on this contouring stuff? To look female?

You keep bringing your mum into this, Gerbil. I've not said anything about her, nor have I said "all women should follow these makeup techniques or should learn from drag queens" etc. Of course your mum looks like a female, because she's a female. But sometimes I have insecurities and so enjoy doing things to combat these insecurities- do you not experience this?

Similarly, I also think it's fun to do intense and colourful makeup with some contouring every once in a while, which only a select few of female influencers partake in. I like that if I feel insecure I can do feminine / pretty makeup, but I also like that I can make my face look like an art piece rather than solely more attractive. It can go both ways depending on how I'm feeling.

I think it would be a mistake to assume that drag queens haven't had an influential effect on modern makeup, because culturally so many techniques have been picked up in that realm of beauty and fashion. I don't personally see drag queens as being an insult to women, because it is apparent that they are a heightened and intense artform and not a depiction of what women actually are or should be.

I've always found drag queens really offensive.

I know that there are some really good ones out there (I've been told there are) who brilliantly critique the whole idea of gender.

But whenever I've seen one perform live, I always got the uneasy feeling that I was the butt of the joke. Because I'm a woman.

I've only ever seen really misogynistic acts. I keep waiting to encounter the brilliant gender de-constructionists, but somehow don't ever seem to come across them.

We get it NiceGerbil you don't wear make-up; you don't like make-up; you can't understand why anyone would want to use artifice to make themselves look better. Good for you.

During lock-down I'm actually wearing more make-up than I did before. I've started using eyeliner, mascara and lipstick every day rather than just if I were going somewhere special, even although I work from home 2 days a week and see no-one apart from my husband and around a dozen people will see me the 3 days I'm in the office. It cheers me up. I think I look better and that makes me feel better. I was very low and depressed at one point during lockdown and using make-up lifted my spirits.

@Teddy1258

Dressing up as somebody black (for fancy dress) doesn't mean you hate black people and are racist.

What do you mean by dressing like black people? Do you mean black face? If that is the case then it might not mean that you hate black people, but it’s definitely racist and has negative connotations. To say that it isn’t so, just reeks of ignorance You only have to research black face to find out why it is racist, it’s not that difficult. I sincerely hope you personally have not done black face. Also, last I checked black people are just people so I have no idea what you mean by “dressing up as somebody black (for fancy dress)”

I hate it too - especially all the derogatory comments about their vaginas, being on their periods, having hot flashes, getting pregnant, needing tampons, having thrush, pms, etc.... all totally lacking in insight and empathy. It reeks of the same type of humour used in incel groups.

The "gay men are the natural ally of women" trope has been swallowed hook line and sinker by a lot of people, mostly to the detriment of women.

They are men, first and foremost. They have been socialised as men, they benefit from the patriarchy and whatever their struggles against prejudice and for acceptance have been, they are not more vulnerable than women.

I have a lot of gay male friends but pulling them up on their casual misogyny can be very tiresome. I love them dearly but Dear Christ they are terrified of vaginas. It's not a massive stretch to think that this results in a punching down which can result in the bitchy, "fishy" drag stereotype.

Disclaimer: I do realise that not all drag queens are gay men.

Disclaimer: I do realise that not all drag queens are gay men.

No, but the predominant audience of drag queens is gay men. Not all - obviously a significant number of women enjoy watching women being made fun of.

The predominant audience of drag queens is gay men, though. Straight men - for the very most part - are not interested. Neither at gay women, on the whole:

Gay men seem to like being able to laugh at women.

My DB is gay, and he’s not really into it. He will go along on the odd specific occasion, and he’ll laugh along. But it’s not his scene. Some of his friends, however, from what they post on FB, they just love it.

I've NC for this.

I moved to Brighton and my line of work meant for three years I spent a lot of time "in the heart" of the gay scene. Initially I was very upbeat as like most women I had come to see the gay scene as "safe" and welcoming, and drag queens as dazzling and fun.

What I learnt in those three years is simply: women forget that gay men and drag queens.......are men.

Theres a tendency (actually quite a patronising tendency) for women to almost desexualise gay men. Correction, CAMP men. Women, particularly middle class women of around 35 years +, treat them almost like handbags or toy dogs - accessories to have a dance with on a friday night and to "build them up". Actually what I learnt is that the gay scene is characterised by two features that surprised me, which you'll find in straight men too, because it's about masculinity:

1. A much more aggressive dating scene
2. Misogyny

In the gay clubs, over three years, I was spat at; I was slapped, I was told to fuck off to "my own bars". I had the terrifying experience of a drag queen from across the bar counter, taking a dislike to me, I dont know why, but staring at me from across the bar, and the look chilled me. Om another occasion, I mentioned how a (different) drag queen looked beautiful, and another drag queen said "shell always be more woman than you". Probably the experience that most stuck with me is one night when I was walking down St James Street and out of nowhere a bottle came flying and shattered literally at my feet.

One night I was standing outside a pub smoking and got talking to a man who was worried about moving across the country with his partner. The pub door flew open and his partner had come out, he began shoving me and asking me what the fuck I thought I was doing. There were quite a few times when this sort of thing would happen - dancing in clubs, and a guy would smile at me, and me feeling myself to be non threatened and non threatening considering the context, would smile back, and somehow the situation would suddenly turn darker.

I was massively surprised by the experience, just because of how drag and campness are portrayed in the mainstream media, which is as colourful, female friendly, cartoonish. Actually it's part of a wider and more complicated context.

Of course I also have some fun memories from that time, and some close friends I have kept who I met in that setting. But overall the experience really reminded me of that phrase that's become well known: "women have no idea how much men hate them".

Not all men, of course. But dont forget that under the hair and makeup, drag queens are men. And dont forget that line.

I agree, it is offensive. But I'm not sure where I stand on drag when it's part of a traditional context and performed by both sexes, I'm specifically talking about pantos, where men play women (widow twanky) and women play men (Peter Pan) although I note that women don't play men, they play boys

Is that 'part of the art'? Or just as offensive?

The joke is that the only person on stage being loud, gaudy and overtly, comically sexual, not only isn't a woman, but isn't even trying to pass for one
I think it's creepy rather than offensive. And overtly, comically sexual? I'm done with this - i stopped watching Stephen Fry as he was always making inuendo, why would you want to constantly listen to suggestive sex talk? The carry one films were joke characters being smutty, not everyday people. It gets boring after a few years bit.,

Other than the fact that it's not funny would you put Mrs Brown in the same category as other drag?

@Schehezarade

The joke is that the only person on stage being loud, gaudy and overtly, comically sexual, not only isn't a woman, but isn't even trying to pass for one I think it's creepy rather than offensive. And overtly, comically sexual? I'm done with this - i stopped watching Stephen Fry as he was always making inuendo, why would you want to constantly listen to suggestive sex talk? The carry one films were joke characters being smutty, not everyday people. It gets boring after a few years bit.,

I was talking about pantomime dames, as the context showed. Like the Ugly Sisters telling the audience how beautiful they are and how the Prince will want to marry them and not Cinderella, and dressing like Christmas trees. The joke is that the only people doing this are very obviously men, and the gaudy clothing and makeup is actually only to make them look LESS like women.

Are the ugly sisters being overtly sexual? I didn't realise you meant panto.

I have no objection at all to men dressing like women, presenting like women, or wanting to actually be a woman

But I have always seen drag shows as parody of womanhood. I have always found it offensive, and unfunny even as a teen (ie 35 years ago!), it is making fun of women for being women.

A lot of it is driven by misogyny, and misogyny is not amusing to me.

But I always thought the problem was with me (I am very “proud” and find it hard to be mocked)

@Schehezarade

Are the ugly sisters being overtly sexual? I didn't realise you meant panto.

Yes, in a family-friendly way. Like Miss Piggy, who has always been voiced by a man. They tell the audience how beautiful and desirable they are, they make jokes about having male members of the audience in the dressing room with them ("he was banging on the door and yelling so much, in the end I had to let him out!"), the shoe fitting scene usually involves a comically huge stocking that seems to go on forever. They're the only ones who do this, and the entire point is that they're not women, don't look OR ACT like women, and everything they wear and do makes them look LESS like women.

I was massively surprised by the experience, just because of how drag and campness are portrayed in the mainstream media, which is as colourful, female friendly, cartoonish. Actually it's part of a wider and more complicated context

This. My experience was similar. There is a lot of hatred in gay communities toward women, especially straight women. I thought nights out in the local “gay village” would be fun and feel safe, without any of the usual worries about predatory men.

It isn’t. The hostility was scary.