To think civil war in the west is impossible

[GoldfishParade]

Yesterday I watched The Social Dilemma and at the very end, the former head of Facebook is asked what his worries are in terms of where he thinks the mass control of peoples mentalities via social media will lead.

He says his biggest fear is civil war.

But considering how much tech and power governments, police, armies have these days AIBU to think civil war in western countries is just impossible? Also civil war between who and why? What's most likely?

I'm wondering if that was just put in at the end to ramp up the drama and get more views (ironic considering the subject matter).

[quote GoldfishParade]@HallFloor
What's convenient? What do you see as 'the West'?[/quote]
I'd certainly include Turkey which is actually in Europe and Mexico, in North America

But Ireland is so close to the brink too, I'm really scared for the situation in Ireland. And the US IMO, certainly parts of it.

To me ''the west'' is Europe (but not Turkey), America, Canada, NZ, and Australia

So you'd include Ukraine in "the West" since it is in Europe?

I rest my case.

Bosnia and Serbia used to be Yugoslavia, and it was very much a western country. It was in the middle of Western Europe🤷🏼‍♀️and was a democracy.

Like I said, it's all subjective. There's no real definition of "Western" really and I'm struggling to define it as I see it!

‘Western’ is Western Europe and USA. It always has been.

I think OP os going with Wikipedia's definition

@DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow
That's interesting, I would have put Bosnia, Bulgaria, and Serbia in with the West (and I've been to two of them), but not Russia. So it's true the West needs defining, and maybe those three countries AREN'T in the West. To me 'the West' means countries that have Judeo-Christian heritage, are developed, and now have an individualistic/capitalist approach rather than a collective one.

@DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow
See, I wouldn't consider Japan or Israel as the West because they have a different philosophy? I'm not sure whether I would put Singapore in 'the West'.

Watch 'Years and Years' for an idea of how things can change.

[quote GoldfishParade]@shallbe
I think you're using needlessly emotive language here. Of course the knock on impact of the wars still lives on. My point is there hasnt been a new case of civil war in the west in a while.

And if you think a digital war is on par with bombings and shootings then maybe you could do with reflecting on that yourself.[/quote]
Some would argue that the fact that there hasn't been a civil war in the west for a while makes it more likely, not less.

Thankfully, and due in no small part to the EU, Europe has been peaceful for a while, but if the EU starts to break up post-Brexit that peace could well become increasingly fragile.

Who knows, we could be seeing the War of Scottish Independence before long, if the Scots are really determined to unshackle themselves from the stupid English who keep electing Tories and xenophobes. And I wouldn't blame them, tbh.

@picklemewalnuts

Watch 'Years and Years' for an idea of how things can change.

That was a brilliant series, I may have to watch it again.

It really showed how things that seem like reasonable measures at the time can often be the start of something much more sinister.

Very thought-provoking, and timely.

Ooh Year and Years you say? I shall investigate. Sounds just the kind of light entertainment I need atm But I will watch.

@CovidDilemma

Yup, like everyone else has said, the UK's last civil war only ended 22 years ago and the repercussions are still felt today.

Yep, and this government are prepared to jeopardise that fragile peace all in the name of Brexit. Absolute bunch of twats.

I hope it doesn't happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if some Loyalists have a rush of blood to the head when it becomes apparent that post-Brexit NI is part of the UK in name only and in a lot of ways will be far more like part of the ROI.

@GoldfishParade

I think you forget how much of a money maker war is. Arms deals etc. There’s a lot of propaganda to glorify war too.

Remember all those war poets who criticised the reality compared to the propaganda they were sold? Wilfred Owen etc.

Years and years was terrifying for how relatable it was and how plausible the escalation was. I can imagine how people felt watching Threads back in whatever decade it was that came out.

[quote GoldfishParade]@HallFloor

I'm more concerned about civil war in this case because that's what the quote is about...

Turkey and Mexico aren't ''the west'' to me.[/quote]
Bloody hell, do you actually know where Mexico is? Perhaps you'd like to tell us which continent it's on?

Turkey is a bit more arguable, which is why Constantinople is often referred to as the city where east meets west.

Likewise Cyprus, which hasd a civil war in the 70s.

@GoldfishParade

Those of you saying "hello? NI?" etc: yes, I'm not an idiot. Spain, NI, Yugoslavia.

But those civil wars are over. Now international institutions play a much bigger role than they did. IMO we wont see a physical civil war but I expect to see much more hacking activity and for there to be a kind of 100% digital civil war.

The Yugoslavian wars were bloody and evil, and only ended in 2001. Why do you think so much has changed in less than 20 years? The international institutions you intimate would stop another such war were already well established and stable by this date. One could argue that they are much less stable now, with Trump’s withdrawal from important institutions like NATO; the rise of the far right here and in countries across Western Europe; and the shock to the EU caused by Brexit, which may yet lead to further fragmentation, particularly if other governments, which have PR voting systems, have to give greater say to far right, protectionist politicians. One does not have to be much of an historian to see how things are moving.

I think the growing gulf between the have & have nots could cause a civil war.

But Ireland is so close to the brink too, I'm really scared for the situation in Ireland.

Not to nitpick, but Ireland is fine. Northern Ireland may struggle to maintain peace depending on what happens with Brexit - ie part of the UK. I feel like OP is finding ways to label anywhere that may experience civil war as other, when really it's a distinct possibility within her own country.

Probably because debate has become lethally polarised to the extent that just having a basic neutral political conversation is impossible.

I agree with this & there also seems to be a disconnect between stating facts & personal feelings.
I said on a recent thread about the US election that I was worried because Trump is still pretty popular in certain states. Other posters took this to mean I was #MAGA & a racist. Expressing that Trump does have supporters doesn't mean I am one.

[quote GoldfishParade]@DontStopThinkingAboutTomorrow
That's interesting, I would have put Bosnia, Bulgaria, and Serbia in with the West (and I've been to two of them), but not Russia. So it's true the West needs defining, and maybe those three countries AREN'T in the West. To me 'the West' means countries that have Judeo-Christian heritage, are developed, and now have an individualistic/capitalist approach rather than a collective one.[/quote]
It's interesting that you say this when you have previously discounted Turkey which has millennia of Judeo-Christian heritage...

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

‘Western’ is Western Europe and USA. It always has been.

But that leaves out all of Africa and South America.

If we're talking about a binary choice of east or west, they have to be in the west, surely?

I'd put the point where west becomes east somewhere around the Red Sea, presonally, but I don't have a globe to hand so can't work out if that works all the way through northern Europe.

Poland, Hungary and the Baltic states definitely count as western in my mental map, despite them having been either Warsaw Pact signatories or part of the USSR. But then Yalta was a massive carve up and if only Churchill had not trusted Stalin, Poland may well have remained part of the western bloc.

Really op even if it’s just a “cold” civil war with a focus on electronic terrorism most western nations have a very delicate and intricate food Distribution network.
Most places it’s ‘just on time’ deliveries across many international boarder as shown with covid.

Most water, power, Sanitation and other info-structure is controlled by computers.

It wouldn’t take much to tip a Cold War into a much hotter one.

To me West is definitely about development and philosophical culture, not location. So that's why I wouldn't consider Mexico or Turkey as the West, but Serbia definitely would be and Singapore too.

Not sure about Bosnia and South Africa for example

But to me I dont see West as being juxtaposed with "East"

@Mypathtriedtokillme
Okay but that's a war between nations. But a war out in the streets within a country in the west? It just seems to me like governments today would have the power to quash that immediately.

Also theres a strange thing IMO whereby social media and stuff like WhatsApp SHOULD technically have the power to make citizens be able to organise much more efficiently and widely, but in reality they have the opposite effect. Maybe it's because if you spend two hours on social media watching videos, writing posts, interacting, then by the time you've finished that your anger is kind of "spent"? So theres less impetus to find another tangible outlet? In that sense I guess you could say social media is a great asset to governments