To want to know a benefit of brexit?

[Dishwashersaurous]

I know that brexit has been done to death. But as we crash into a no deal and inevitable queues at the border my children are asking what is the benefit of brexit.

Could someone please tell me a tangible benefit that I can tell them- as I am struggling to think of anything

So many posters are banging on about how the Tories will be "removing all standards and rights" yet the UK's standards far exceed the EU's minimum

I'm probably one of the posters you refer to, but I would argue that it's not about 'rights' - it's about regulation, and yes, standards.

Which of the UK's standards do you feel far exceed the EU's right now? Do you think that an untethered Tory Party will - for example - voluntarily clean up our polluted rivers? What about workplace regulations?

If you trust the Tories with people's health, safety and welfare in the teeth of a pandemic and a no-deal Brexit then you're a better optimist than me!

To know that we live in a democracy and free from a federalist political experiment.

Fast vaccine approval. You wanted one

Absolutely positively NOTHING To do with Brexit!

Indeed post 1 jan we're screwed for some time for obtaining covid vaccine or the means to make it let alone many thousands of other life saving and supporting meds.

Independence for Scotland...

As a scot I hope so too, but that's only of benefit to the Scots - not the rest of the Uk

Will Scotland not need to apply to join the EU, as an independent nation?

Yes, but Eu officials have been clear albeit subtly/diplomatically that they would welcome Scotland into the Eu

Being able to set 0% VAT on items?

Under an extreme Tory govt? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Er...try - that's probably going to be a MAJOR reason for price hikes! Chances are they may initially reduce vat on SOME items (as a vote buying act) but will INCREASE vat overall!

I'm expecting someone to come back and say something like 'tories are the party of business and so won't increase vat' except they don't care about smaller businesses as they're of no use to them and larger businesses will either exploit tax loopholes or be given exemptions!

Likely reunification of Ireland

again only suits and benefits some, not even all the Irish want this!

will be able to make laws that suit the U.K

Genuine questions - who do you think MAKES our laws? WHO of the Uk population do you think these new laws will benefit?

I remember talk about the EU not having a trade deal with Mexico, way back. If this is still the case we will benefit from being able to negotiate a deal direct

It took 2 years for the Eu to finalise a trade agreement with Mexico so there is a deal meaning we will have great difficulty setting up our own with them if we even can.

Come jan 1 we lose not only all trade agreement with Eu but also pretty much the rest of the world that we currently have VIA the Eu, this govt have basically nothing to even BEGIN setting up trade agreements with non Eu countries and of course they don't HAVE to agree to trade with us anyway and will naturally only do so if it benefits THEM. They can manage perfectly fine WITHOUT us.

In addition do you think trade agreements are purely about price/taxation? There's FAR more to it than that, of particular concern are regulations on fraud, misrepresentation of product quality, health and safety elements etc. I'm certainly not happy being in poor health already at the prospect of dodgy food, drink, toiletries and even meds entering the market!

I’m sure it will be ok in the end

again genuine question - based on what?

Perhaps we could have more of a meaningful debate if they actually put forward some valid arguments?

The problem there is they don't have one! Numerous threads over almost 5 years on here, on other sm platforms, discussions in the media... I've yet to come across a single one, and I'm not in an "echo chamber" around half my friends voted for Brexit (most now regret and are angry/scared at what they've learned since), several vote Tory, on my other social media I follow (in order to be as well informed as possible) pages and people I don't agree with on this and other subjects.

Possibly good in a different electoral system but we still have the same antiquated FPTP system which essentially gives us a permanent Tory/right-wing government as they can be elected with huge majorities off the back of 25% of the electorate voting for them. The EU at least stopped some of their excesses

totally agree with this

Live animal export for fattening and/or slaughter can be banned.

You REALLY expect a party raised on hunting, shooting and fishing, veal and foie gras regularly consumed to do this?! I don't!

The mess that EWTD made of doctors' hours and training can be addressed

Did you work in the nhs prior to this? I did! It NEEDED to be addressed! The previous circumstances were LITERALLY killing drs and patients!

It should be a criminal act if a serving politician is found to have blatantly lied in service, especially on crucial issues

I agree but it'll never happen.

We need a major shake up of Uk parliament

I heartily disagree with discussions on Brexit being hidden away on its own board. This is affecting EVERYONE in the Uk and indirectly the Eu and the rest of the world.

For the old left, the ability to subside manufacturing industry without getting into EU competition law problems

Do you mean subsidise? Typo? Tory party won't subsidise anyone but their cronies via backhanders!

Id like to see a more protectionist economy that was not possible within the EU.

Why? Protectionism in a modern global economy is foolish and limiting to say the least. History has repeatedly shown it to be detrimental

Our membership of the EU has coincided with a decline in British manufacturing and other industries eg Dairy. EU policies have not favoured British production

correlation is not causation. I and many others would argue right wing governance over the last 40 odd years is what's led to our manufacturing AND farming industries being decimated!

Indeed difficulties in being able to export now to the Eu may result in as much as 15% loss in manufacturing jobs alone though most accurate estimated place this at 6-8% loss

@Hazelnutlatteplease Uk govt COULD have closed the borders in response to covid and other Eu countries have it was entirely their choice NOT to

We do pay nursing bursaries. £5k plus up to a further £3k in certain circumstances

Nowhere NEAR at the rate we used to! I received a full bursary that it was possible for me to live on (just!) when I trained. It's virtually impossible and frankly unreasonable to expect nursing students to supplement their income with additional work. They are already in effect completing a full time demanding degree while simultaneously working full time in placements. A few MAY be able to manage some bank hca work or similar but this makes it harder for them to fully commit to the training and puts their health and safety and that of patients at risk imo. Need to stop as pretty much a whole other thread! Could YOU live on £5k let alone £3k especially in a physically and mentally demanding role with costs associated with shift work?

Taking back control of borders with a points based system of immigration.

We always had the ability to do this I believe

Making our own laws and regulations

Had that too .

A British regulatory framework will be able to better exploit the fourth industrial revolution and avoid EU protectionism.

I don't see how Uk protectionism is better! Certainly it's more limited! Exploitation is likely to happen though - mainly of workers!

Controlling trade policy, leading to new and better agreements such as the Japan FTA and joining the CPTPP.

Any evidence of that as yet? I've not seen any

An independent sanctions and human rights regime separate to and more progressive than the EU’s

Under a very right wing govt?! As if!

Taking back control of fishing waters and exclusive economic zone.

More like limiting where we can fish and facing economic destruction of the fishing industry

Replacing the wasteful anti-environmental Common Agricultural Policy.

Not buying that our govt is especially "green" either

More accountable political system. Direct Parliamentary accountability. Politicians no longer hiding behind EU rules.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Yea cos our politicians have Soooo much integrity and honesty!!

A new state aid regime that is responsive and in keeping with free market principles, but also that support the agenda of levelling up.

Aye right! They hate the welfare state! I dread to think what will happen now without Eu regulation!! The introduction of UC and pip has been bad enough!

New freeports.

Not much bloody use if we can't get the goods to make things to export! Plus I can hardly see non Eu countries lining up to pay us lots of money to use our ports when we can't freely import/export to our nearest geographically major buyers! And they can access cheaply and easily if not free the ports in countries with better organisation!

Taking back control of the £20 billion currently controlled by the EU every year to spend on UK priorities instead

Is this the new "£350mn for the nhs"?

In other words more money going into Tory crony's back pockets!

I don't know if they only sell British cheeses but everything we've had so far has been British

A wider point from this comment. I've yet to find (and I've tried!) a single "British product" that doesn't require raw ingredients or materials or machinery or supporting products for manufacture from countries outside the Uk mainly the Eu. Items labelled "made in Britain" simply mean the final product is made in Britain. Machinery, ingredients, chemicals etc necessary to make them mostly come from outside the Uk. Even "quintessentially British" products like marmite require items from outside the Uk. Also such items which are from non Eu countries generally if not mostly come to us via the Eu purely due to geography. We don't have large distribution centres in the Uk for eg the bottling and distribution of new world wines.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx what are you basing that on? We're headed into a major recession due to the double edged sword of Brexit and covid. Almost 1.5mn people have already been made redundant this year in the Uk and economic experts are saying they're expecting that figure to reach 3.5mn possibly even as high as 5mn by next summer. There aren't enough jobs for all who are legally here NOW and the population isn't going to significantly reduce post 1/1/21.

But if we continued to be members of the EU we could argue for it to become illegal across the continent which is much better

Excellent point!

What's their fucking rush to get out in the most disruptive and destructive way? This country is already exhausted by the pandemic!

Honestly - look up and learn as much as you can about "disaster capitalism"!

The main one is that it shows the political system actually works for the people

Does it fuck! It shows the electorate are far too easily manipulated!

The people of the UK voted in favour of it

No! Very very slightly more than half of those who voted. (See attached pic for chart)

Britain has had two opportunities to "correct" the Leave vote

Really?! When?! I don't remember there being another referendum! Or even a general election where a major party came out as the party of remain!

Other obvious benefits are the end to free movement

Please explain how this is a benefit?

Free movement is great in theory, but in practice only works if roughly similar numbers of people enter a country as leave it.

Source please? Source also for the evidence that migration levels will massively change as a result of leaving the Eu? Other countries will still migrate to Uk indeed the Uk govt have made several announcements about ENCOURAGING migrants to the Uk from certain countries

Sure, prices are likely to rise in the short term. But that's only because the EU is insisting on it

They are within their rights to enforce their tariffs on a country that is CHOOSING to leave their membership!

The UK would do a free trade deal, no problem, but the EU wants to tack on other things

You have it backwards somewhat!

Of course the Uk govt wants a free trade deal but they want it without offering anything in return! If I come to your house and say I want the food out of your cupboards are you going to give it to me free - or more accurately at cost price - even though I am offering you nothing in return?! Not even a promise of future custom?!

And that is the best thing about leaving the EU - why remain in a club whose members treat us like that? 🙄

I don't agree the Eu are bullies they're acting in their members best interests which is their job! But to go with your analogy do you REALLY think THIS Tory govt are LESS likely to be bullies when there's nobody to regulate them?!

If so you're either incredibly naive, incredibly wealthy and privileged or both!

Indeed that post is pretty much a perfect example of the attitude of British exceptionalism!

On the whole, racists are far more likely to be leave voters.

I know it's often used as an argument against remainers ("we're not all racist actually") but yes that's been my observation too. A few not too close friends showed their true colours in this regard on my other sm literally days after the result. Cut them off of course but I've seen it over and over on various pages and feeds by leavers on them who are no longer afraid to show their fascist attitudes. Completely disgusting!

Really it's up to our government to train our workforce to do the available jobs. Sadly they are not interested in doing this, just pushing academic qualifications onto everyone and neglecting technical training

Doing sod all in the way of job creation too!

You need to show that the majority of Britons will be economically and socially better off outside it in the short, medium and long term. And there is overwhelming evidence suggesting they won’t.

Exactly!

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

Of course a lot of people voted leave to reduce immigration. What is wrong with that?

For starters the reason is usually racism/prejudice! Immigration is good for the economy, immigrants tend to be net contributors and enrich our culture and lives in many ways, literally and figuratively.

Current parties in power in the countries you listed -

Germany cdu/csu - centre right with some plain socialist policies

Austria - a coalition between a Green Party and a Conservative party, more right wing than centre right and admittedly anti immigration as a major policy but generally conservative with a small c

Italy - current prime minister and government seems fairly socialist in outlook, they have apparently implemented various welfare reforms inc a type of UBI which seems to be working well (I have family there)

Spain - currently has a left/centre left coalition

France - centre right governance with some socialist ideology, the party tend to resist definition.

I have a feeling you based that comment on VERY outdated and limited knowledge of the politics in those countries! I've lived in one of these and as I say family in another and they are FAR from very right wing!

So the National Front in France is not extreme right????

Would you rather we had extreme right wing parties like they have in these countries?

You mean like the bnp, UKIP, national front here, Britain first? - meaning WE DO! And worse our elected govt were led by their Fucking wallets and greed for power into doing their bidding!

There are MINORITY far right and far left parties in most countries. People vary - shocker! Doesn't provide anything like an argument for Brexit

All that said quite a few of us are VERY concerned about how far right our current GOVERNING party are heading and are likely to do so even more after Brexit! and they have 365 seats! And a leader/prime minister who's publicly and mostly unapologetically (non apologies don’t count) made absolutely atrocious racist remarks!

I am talking about white europeans having white privilege and so getting the job because they are white, not because the company does not want to hire a BAME person

Why do you THINK white privilege exists?! How do you think it manifests?! White people are more likely to get a job BECAUSE the PEOPLE (who form a company or organisation and do the hiring and firing) are racist and more likely to employ white people! Its actions and decisions like this that CREATE white privilege it isn't an abstract entity that appears out of nowhere!

There are lots of areas in the UK which are majority BAME so it is likely to happen

utter nonsense! I've lived all over the Uk as a white woman including places with high population of non white people and it was definitely easier still for white people to get jobs/homes/support! I'm guessing you live somewhere very white and have all or most of your life.

We are not forced to increasingly merge our common law legal system with civil law systems in the continent is an obvious one

Genuinely would like explanation as to how this is a good thing?

Why is the stupid? Because you think that white privilege doesnt' exist?

No because YOU don't seem to properly understand it!

how is it the governments fault, the people voted leave

Because the govt

1 Allowed the vote to go ahead without proper preparation or even an agreement in THIS country alone on what Brexit actually meant (mainly as Cameron arrogantly assumed leave wouldn't win having completely misread the electorate)

2 Failed to then put in place actual, common sense preparations for Brexit (mainly as they STILL couldn't and can't agree what Brexit actually bloody well IS)

3 Failed to use the extensions to plan and prepare OR even agree what Brexit was

We're 20 days away and STILL nobody can clearly define what Brexit is! Every brexiteer even has a different sodding definition!

@ReadyFreddy DO NOT insult the older generation with your appalling prejudiced stereotyped comments regarding their attitudes to race and prejudice!

My parents and grandparents - all working class poor from a major industrial city - would be completely insulted by your comments! All 4 grandparents fought in wwii against such prejudices and worked alongside people of all nationalities, races and religions to do so! As catholics they also experienced a lot of prejudice themselves. All had/have good friends and relatives who were of various backgrounds too. Mums closest friend of the last 25 years is an Indian lady who came to Uk just over 30 years ago. She's in her mid 70's as is my dad. My grandparents were they still alive would be in their 90's/100's now. Parents both voted remain as did all but one of their siblings who was taken ill on the day of the referendum and therefore unable to vote.

Disgusting comments.

Ageist as well as other things!

Maybe you could put up the kind of signs my Mum saw when she came here from Ireland in the 1950s to work in the NHS because there weren't enough British women to do the jobs there : No Irish No Blacks No Dogs. Happy days of yore.

Yep! Bet that poster would love that!


The people spouting racist crap on my other sm? A range of ages from 50's to 20's - the common denominator - Generally lacking in intelligence OR common sense too!

@TheWichitaWineOne

Thank you for your excellent post which goes some way to balance the revolting one just above yours

I'm surprised how confident people feel that the Tories are going to invest in their region as much as the EU did.

I'm not surprised but saddened and angered by the lack of political knowledge in the general populace. Yes people can and should educate themselves as the education system (quite deliberately particularly in England) fails to do so.

Here in Scotland there is a high school subject called "modern studies" which teaches children how our political system works, the ideologies and policies of the various parties etc it's an excellent subject missed out on but learned about when dd attended school here. Personally I think it SHOULD be taught worldwide (but of course in terms of the differing political system in the country it's being taught in) and certainly the whole of the uk.

The shockingly ill informed comments by voters displayed in the run up to various elections and referenda who clearly don't even understand basics like how our parliament is organised is disgraceful!

Why isn't this happening?

Basically cos our current govt (and I mean govt not just the ruling party) couldn't organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery! Far far too many "well educated" but ultimately Fucking stupid people running the country!

My best friend through school was BAME and I have BAME friends. They all voted leave because they could see how racist and selfish Remainers and the EU are.

Seriously? Pull the other one!

I know remainers who have other faults and prejudices but not one of them is racist!

The benefit of Brexit is therefore that only British voted politicians will be enacting laws on this country. as previously stated many of us DO NOT see that as a benefit particularly given the current state of Uk politics!

Cheap labour from Eu migrants - our own govt COULD but WON’T improve wages or conditions. Migrants from many non Eu countries will also be willing to work for less money and could easily be from countries where Uk pay goes a lot further than it does anywhere in Europe! I don’t begrudge them this fact but generally brexiters won’t like it!

Re ECHR - isolated cases really. We’re far better off WITH the echr than without! Luckily not an issue as this isn’t affected by Brexit

People do not want politicians they didn’t and couldn’t vote for making laws in this country

But Scots welsh and northern Irish are expected to be governed by people they didn’t and couldn’t vote for!

The only people who really want to remain are blinkered people living in nice houses with their comfortable left leaning politics erm I’m in a Victorian tenement flat as a social tenant in west Scotland, disabled and live on benefits! Hardly “nice houses and comfortable”! It’s people like me are going to be the WORST affected by this but I’m very grateful to those who voted remain and don’t vote Tory who are arguing and fighting the corner of the most vulnerable of us even if they are much better off!

If that were really what was planned, wouldn't they have already done so?

Have you missed the last 10 years of Uk politics?! Cuts cuts cuts! Uc, pip, rising unemployment, housing crisis, nhs being undermined and underfunded...

[quote TheSunIsStillShining]@DdraigGoch
examples please. no, really, I am not a lawyer or standards specialist so have no idea if you are right or wrong[/quote]
Spain has issued several EAWs as it tries to pursue the leaders of the Catalan independence movement. This isn't compatible with Article 10 of the ECHR.

Several countries have issued EAWs for trivial crimes or things which wouldn't even be a crime in this country. Given that Poland and Hungary are currently showing little respect for rule of law, this is dangerous.

www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/opinion/brexit-future-of-the-european-arrest-warrant-in-question/

@TheWichitaWineOne

So many posters are banging on about how the Tories will be "removing all standards and rights" yet the UK's standards far exceed the EU's minimum

I'm probably one of the posters you refer to, but I would argue that it's not about 'rights' - it's about regulation, and yes, standards.

Which of the UK's standards do you feel far exceed the EU's right now? Do you think that an untethered Tory Party will - for example - voluntarily clean up our polluted rivers? What about workplace regulations?

If you trust the Tories with people's health, safety and welfare in the teeth of a pandemic and a no-deal Brexit then you're a better optimist than me!

Take animal welfare: www.nfuonline.com/sectors/animal-health/animal-health-news/uk-leads-the-way-in-animal-welfare/ The UK bans Foie Gras, France and Spain do not. The UK has banned the ivory trade, the EC is yet to make up its mind.

Growth hormones were banned in the UK a full ten years before the EU did. It was a Conservative government who banned them.

The personal pleasure of watching the righteous frothing to the extreme...anger anger anger anger anger

@Smallgoon

I know racist people who voted remain and some that voted leave

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Know lots of racists, do you...?

I know lots of people

People can be racist

Its funny though

I make an appeal for people to be less ALL leave voters are.... and a bit more SOME people are

And because i say i know some people who are racist that automatically makes me? Well i think the inference was racist

That is rich coming from people who have no problem with the House of Lords. Un-elected,

Yes. But the vote wasn’t about the House of Lords, it was about leaving the EU.

Also many Brexiters (eg Nigel Farage) want to abolish the House of Lords.

Faridge also wants Texas to secede from the US. He's a grifter. I'm only interested in what people who care about this country think.
And after this shit show, I predict the House of Lords will be replaced by a senate, Ireland will be reunited, Scotland will leave the Uk and we will get done version of PR.
If that's what Brexiteers want, they've got a fucking comical way of going about it- to quote Michael Caine.

We'll get to cross our fingers more often and I'll be able to say 'how can this be ameliorated? ". Probably every day

A couple of people upthread said the benefits for the nhs training through loss of the EWTD and recruitment.
I know lots and lots of people who work in medical training and recruitment (including my DH) and they pretty much all agree Brexit is harmful to the NHS not helpful. It's causing huge problems which are now hitting us at a time of vulnerability through a global pandemic (ok this wasn't foreseeable but has made it so much worse) and basically they are dreading the shitstorm that's going to be next year.
They never had problems recruiting from inside or outside the EU in this region but now they are finding it hard because it's just not an attractive place to work plus they've lost a whole load of excellent EU staff who have gone home.
So far they see more bureaucracy not less and lots and lots of problems that have been created by Brexit.
The issues with training is limited to certain specialties and could be addressed through internal change rather than wholesale politics.

Point 3 is total rubbish. The European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

That’s not quite true.

Cases will of course continue to be able to go to the ECHR. But many decisions of the ECHR tend to become law. It’s possible that ECHR decisions become less effective in the U.K. as the UK will not be bound by changes to EU law. So for some people this is a step in the right (?) direction.

Also When Britain leaves the EU, the Government have said the Charter of Fundamental Rights will no longer have effect in UK law. Although we will still have the convention on human rights. I also hope we will continue to be protected by workers rights. They have said we will.

Just out of curiosity: did anyone look up trading standards of the WTO in relation to Services?
A big part of the UK gdp is from services and we have 20 days until end of year and no peep in the news on what will be happening on that front.
So great that we are all about manufacturing our own shit and fisheries, but they don't really amount to much in the bigger picture.

"Services are the largest part of the economy – in 2019, they accounted for 79% of output, production for 13%, construction for 7% and agriculture for 1%."
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02787/#:~:text=GDP%20by%20Industry,grew%20by%200.2%25%20in%20October.&text=Manufacturing%20output%20was%20up%201.7,is%20down%206.6%25%20on%20February.

@ParlezVousWronglais

That’s not quite true

Totally true. I think you are confusing the European Court of Human rights (ECHR) with the European Court of Justice (ECJ)

if you give massively preferential treatment to Europeans......then you are giving that treatment to predominantly white people

This makes me both laugh and despair.

Been to the continent lately? I live here and in my city alone there are 180 nationalities living here - and loads intermarrying, hey-ho, with white Europeans too.. Having children, born and bred, going to school and making friends with all sorts of mixes. Kids don't give a shiny shit what colour their mates happen to be. Bring it on I say.

Thank god it's becoming a melting-pot. Every creed and colour you can think of. This is the future of Europe.

Agree with 'iflyaway'.
The argument about white Europeans getting preferential treatment is the most manufactured, ludicrous position I've seen for a while. Nations set up trading blocks based on shared values and proximity and establish reciprocal arrangements. Nobody's stressing about Australia and New Zealand having reciprocal freedom of movement, are they? Once we've done Brexit are you going to militate to abolish the Common travel agreement between Ireland and the UK for the same flawed reason? Did the CTA bother you before? And yes, I know lots of BAME people from continental Europe. It's not a surprising thing. There are millions of French citizens who came from North Africa originally for starters. Replicate that throughout lots of other nations . . . .

The argument about white Europeans getting preferential treatment is the most manufactured, ludicrous position I've seen for a while.

I totally agree. I actually spluttered when I read it first on here. Ain’t no one falling for that.

I think you are confusing the European Court of Human rights (ECHR) with the European Court of Justice (ECJ)

Maybe. Do judgements of the ECHR not sometimes become law?

Countries don’t have to implement their judgements anyway. The other 2 ‘benefits’ are still perceived benefits.

(Not my personal view, I’m neutral on Brexit. I think if the majority of voters want to come out, we should come out; if the the majority of voters want to stay in, then we should stay in. Some people do seem very emotionally attached to staying in which is just an observation).

There aren't any!