To wonder how people make it to adulthood without knowing

[Staffy1]

That a Christmas tree decoration is called a "bauble", not "ball ball"? Or how they make it through junior school without knowing the difference between "his" and "he's"? What happens in schools these days and don't people ever read anything?

High moral ground is a dangerous place to perch. Easy to get knocked off :)

I'm not sure if that comment was aimed at me but if so, none of what I've said has anything to do with a "moral high ground". Sad not to be able to discuss such serious issues without people reducing the conversation to personal attacks.

@EBearhug

We're never taught it, and there's no real reason for "the red big bag" to be wrong, but no native speaker would say it.

But we are taught it. If a child said it, an adult would correct them to "big red bag", and if the child asked "why?" they'd probably just be told, "it's just the way it is. We get taught most of the rules as young children without being taught the metalanguage round it. Parents just correct children, "the dog ran away, not runned away." We don't tend to go into a long explanation about having to learn all the irregular past participles once they've got to grips with the regular -ed suffix on most verbs. We just repeat the words without explaining the grammar and repeat and repeat.

That's true, but we are taught about irregular verbs later on. I know there aren't any hard and fast rules, but we are told that some verbs conjugate irregularly.

I've never heard of the order of adjectives being mentioned in an English lesson, and only very occasionally in TEFL, and only then as a correction, rather than being a lesson in itself.

I thought Janegrey333 meant me, as I corrected the punctuation she used when correcting someone else's punctuation 😂

But I agree, I don't think my morals are any better than hers!

😂 and I thought she meant me, for repeatedly saying bad spellers shouldn’t be sneered at.

Seems a bit of a snide comment whoever it was aimed at..

My comment on her punctuation was already meant to point out that anyone jostling for a place on the pinnacle of good spelling can easily lose their footing (myself included). But I'm happy to take the prize if no-one else wants it.

@Smallsteps88

I'm not sure you can completely blame education in adulthood though. If I don't know something I Google it.

Yeah you can. The foundations of learning, wanting to learn and enjoying learning are laid in primary school and reinforced throughout to the end of school life. Some people have such an appalling, and even traumatic experience of “education” that by the time they are 18 they are totally switched off from anything remotely resembling learning. There’s also the massive issue of people not knowing they don’t know something. If no one has ever told them that ball balls is wrong, why would they think to google the correct spelling? they think that’s how it’s spelled.

Actually those foundations are laid way before primary school, and IMO are the responsibility of parents. Reading fiction is the single most important thing a young person can do to improve their vocabulary, spelling, punctuation and grammar. Parents need to be reading to their children from birth, and it needs to continue until the child is fully literate (and beyond just for the sheer joy of sharing a good story together)

I don’t think it is reasonable to expect that a teacher, with the best will in the world, could invest as much time as a child’s parent own parents.

My point isn’t that children shouldn’t be encouraged to excel at spelling. It’s that as adults, if it’s not their personal strength (for whatever reason) they shouldn’t be sneered at or criticised

This isn't about spelling, It's about using written and verbal expressions and words that don't exist, they just sound vaguely like the actual phrase or word and often make no sense. I'm not sneering. I really do wonder why there is so much of it about lately compared to a decade or two ago.

@ravenmum

My comment on her punctuation was already meant to point out that anyone jostling for a place on the pinnacle of good spelling can easily lose their footing (myself included). But I'm happy to take the prize if no-one else wants it.

Let's not fight over it!

[quote ravenmum]@PolkadotGiraffe Well, it's certainly a shame when people's options are reduced. I was one of the children who couldn't get into grammar school through innate ability - I was one of the youngest in my year, immature - but was happy that I got to go to university via a comprehensive (an option my children didn't have in this part of Germany). But having seen what it was like at the kids' grammar schools, I did appreciate the fact that the students were mainly quite studious, there was less physical bullying etc. Most did still seem to need support from parents or tutors, though.

Do you think that a really bright child of the kind that could make it through grammar school without much parental support would do well at a comprehensive, too? Or are you thinking about the social mobility aspects, and their chances at very high-flying careers?[/quote]
This is a difficult question. Some comprehensives are excellent. Several that I attended were appalling and yes I believe I would have learned far more in a grammar school where the students mostly wanted to learn and engage with the lessons.

In my ideal world, rather than shoehorning everyone into comprehensives which in many ways cater to nobody's needs, it would be better in my opinion for academic children from any area and socioeconomic background to have access to an education that fulfils that if that is where their interests lie, and for those that have other interests to be allowed to do the basics in terms of academics, literacy etc and then focus on their interests and areas of skill. And like I said people change a lot in formative years so there would need to be fluidity. But I do believe that at the moment we try to shoehorn everyone into one model until at least 16 and it is detrimental for everybody. It lowers the standard of education for academically able children but it also devalues other skills and talents and destroys the confidence of many who have lots of worthwhile, non-academic skills that they could be developing in that time.

I thought many times during school how it would be best to excel at one thing, then nothing else would matter much. Yet instead everyone is forced to do everything and that, to me, seems counterproductive. I think too much of the discussion around education in the UK has got tangled up in politics rather than thinking about what is best and will inspire individual children, unfortunately.

@Janegrey333

What is wine-fuming?

Ah that little hyphen is such a pest.

The above is a lighthearted comment. It is not a correction.

Should have been:
Toddler drank wine – fuming.
With a dash, not a hyphen smile

I KNOW the dash should be used but I didn’t wish to be rude to the poster.

🙄🙄🙄

Below us your little contribution:

Should have been:
Toddler drank wine – fuming.
With a dash, not a hyphen smile

Below is...

@ravenmum

My comment on her punctuation was already meant to point out that anyone jostling for a place on the pinnacle of good spelling can easily lose their footing (myself included). But I'm happy to take the prize if no-one else wants it.

No prize for you. Sorry about that. Too quick off the blocks. 😆

@ravenmum

High moral ground is a dangerous place to perch. Easy to get knocked off :)

Indeed. As has been demonstrated. 🤭

I really do wonder why there is so much of it about lately compared to a decade or two ago.

There isn't. As has been said repeatedly on this thread, it's not that there is more incorrect language, it's just that you see more of it.

The people who rail against poor grammar and spelling are not noble knights upholding a waning standard. They are smug, petty, passive-aggressive saddos who ascribe moral superiority to the middle class linguistic standards they inherited by chance.

“This isn't about spelling, It's about using written and verbal expressions and words that don't exist, they just sound vaguely like the actual phrase or word and often make no sense. I'm not sneering.”

Semantics - and yes you are sneering. “How on earth can anyone get to adulthood without knowing xyz” (gist of your OP) is about as sneery as you can get.

Semantics - and yes you are sneering. “How on earth can anyone get to adulthood without knowing xyz” (gist of your OP) is about as sneery as you can get.

Precisely. The very wording of the OP displays an astonishingly ignorant, arrogant view of people's access to knowledge.

(Forgive me, not sure if anyone's said this previously as I haven't read all 23 pages). This is responding to an example from a PP.

"Which is correct Caster Sugar or Castor Sugar? Both are right. The spelling castor sugar used to be the prevailing one, but caster sugar seems to be more usual now perhaps because it is used by some sugar manufacturers on their packaging." (www.english-for-students.com/Castor-Sugar.html#:~:text=Which%20is%20correct%20Caster%20Sugar,sugar%20manufacturers%20on%20their%20packaging.)

And there's also a definition for castor sugar here: www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/castor-sugar

I think it's always natural to assume your spelling is the right one (general "you") but language changes and adapts so quickly, and for me anyway not everyone has had the privilege or genetics to be easily able to learn and pick up words through reading and a focus on education in early childhood. I feel fortunate to be able to understand the difference between "there", "their" and "they're" for example but I deserve very little credit for that skill because it was taught and conditioned into me by people who cared about language.

[quote MilkGoatee]@dreamthemoors, no that is not always possible. Depends on the autocorrect feature, but I have used one where the correction took place between typing and posting. Changing it to hilarious things, couldn't spell my name or my relations' names (as non-English). No backspacing and correcting possible.[/quote]
@MilkGoatee

Never ever had that problem or even heard of that problem.
So sorry you’ve experienced it.

Social media is also partly responsible for the spreading of errors. People see errors so frequently that it either reinforces their use of them or makes them question whether the correct version is actually the right one.

This. This, with the added joy that, if you dare correct a misspelling, misconception, or mistake, you may as well declare your allegiance to Satan. How on earth is it rude, snobby or judgemental to politely point out that, for example, there is no world in which 'needs gone' is Standard English.

"I make silly mistakes, it's hard because it's hurtful to be corrected and shown up."

Why is it hurtful to be corrected? Would you not be more hurt that someone noticed you making a mistake and cared so little about you that they didn't correct you? There is no part of being corrected that is the same as being 'shown up'.
If you'd decided to lob a bread roll at me across the table at Windsor Castle, that might show you up. Not being corrected.

@HereBeFuckery

"I make silly mistakes, it's hard because it's hurtful to be corrected and shown up."

Why is it hurtful to be corrected? Would you not be more hurt that someone noticed you making a mistake and cared so little about you that they didn't correct you? There is no part of being corrected that is the same as being 'shown up'.
If you'd decided to lob a bread roll at me across the table at Windsor Castle, that might show you up. Not being corrected.

Exactly. School happens every day.

Why is it hurtful to be corrected? Would you not be more hurt that someone noticed you making a mistake and cared so little about you that they didn't correct you? There is no part of being corrected that is the same as being 'shown up'.

This displays a real lack of understanding of human nature. It is ridiculous to suggest that strangers on the internet correct people because they care about them. They mostly do it to make themselves feel superior, or out of a misguided belief that they are somehow going to help turn the tide and improve what they see as the woeful state of the nation's language.

It's also either very silly or disingenuous to fail to understand that it's embarrassing and potentially humiliating to have your language corrected publicly by someone who has decided that your mistakes are somehow their business.

Exactly. School happens every day.

Except that randoms on the internet are not your teacher. They often know less than they think they do. As an adult, you should get to choose when, where, how and from whom you learn things.