To wonder how people make it to adulthood without knowing

[Staffy1]

That a Christmas tree decoration is called a "bauble", not "ball ball"? Or how they make it through junior school without knowing the difference between "his" and "he's"? What happens in schools these days and don't people ever read anything?

@ polkadot

I don’t think anyone is questioning the importance of reading or writing as a life skill. I’m certainly not.

There is a world of difference between being illiterate and making the types of spelling errors being sneered at by many on here. Eg who ever lost their job because they said ball ball not bauble?

There are many successful people who are bad at spelling, but have built business empires by having excellent people skills, being great salesman, or in the case of some (eg personal trainers) having sporting prowess!

You kind of were implying that if you could teach yourself to spell well anyone could (eg my childhood circumstances were SO hard but I taught myself to read by candlelight etc etc)

My point isn’t that children shouldn’t be encouraged to excel at spelling. It’s that as adults, if it’s not their personal strength (for whatever reason) they shouldn’t be sneered at or criticised.

@ravenmum

Not if they were available in all areas (so the expensive postcode part which exists now due to scarcity was removed). I live in Germany, where they're available in all areas. The area my kids went to school was a poor postcode. Germany did very badly in the PISA report due to the education gap, with the grammar schools receiving a lot of criticism. People who went to grammar school tend to have children who go to grammar school, even though the children get in based on their marks at the end of primary school.

(We also have free universities, and people call themselves Frau Dr. or Frau Prof. Dr. the whole time :) )

I am familiar with the German system, to an extent. It isnot perfect no, no system is. And does not have the fluidity in the system that I suggested, so that children could move between grammar schools and others rather than having an arbitrary cut-off entrance point? I believe Germany did better than the UK in most of the PISA reports in recent years also?

@Areweallsheepnow82

@ polkadot

I don’t think anyone is questioning the importance of reading or writing as a life skill. I’m certainly not.

There is a world of difference between being illiterate and making the types of spelling errors being sneered at by many on here. Eg who ever lost their job because they said ball ball not bauble?

There are many successful people who are bad at spelling, but have built business empires by having excellent people skills, being great salesman, or in the case of some (eg personal trainers) having sporting prowess!

You kind of were implying that if you could teach yourself to spell well anyone could (eg my childhood circumstances were SO hard but I taught myself to read by candlelight etc etc)

My point isn’t that children shouldn’t be encouraged to excel at spelling. It’s that as adults, if it’s not their personal strength (for whatever reason) they shouldn’t be sneered at or criticised.

No. I was saying that the factors and circumstances that were being portrayed as an absolute barrier to learning are not. Yes, they make it more difficult. But not impossible.

We all make spelling and grammatical errors. I have in many posts on this very thread! But reading and writing a basic skills and essential to most people to function in life therefore do deserve more emphasis at school than some of the other areas that you mention, in my opinion. Yes, some people succeed without them, but a small percentage. To give children the best chance in life we should give them every chance and encouragement to reach a basic standard of literacy, and "ball ball" to be honest falls far short of that.

@ravenmum also as I am certain you know, Germany has many good educational programmes leading to careers in technical occupations, which the UK does not. I think we really fail our young people here with the education we offer and the opportunities they have a a result.

And does not have the fluidity in the system that I suggested, so that children could move between grammar schools and others rather than having an arbitrary cut-off entrance point? I believe Germany did better than the UK in most of the PISA reports in recent years also?
There is some flexibility, in that you can change schools later if your marks improve, but it takes a bit of an effort so most people don't bother. I seem to think England didn't manage to hand in the data for the year when Germany did badly, so I don't know how they compared. But looking online, I see that reading literacy has come up again since:

2018:
In reading literacy, the main topic of PISA 2018, 15-year-olds in Germany score 498 points compared to an average of 487 points in OECD countries.

In 2018, England’s pupils achieved a mean score of 505 in reading, which was significantly above the OECD average (487)5, as it was for the first time in 2015(Jerrim et al.,2016).

So not a big difference, but England is slightly ahead.

I was just curious about why you thought grammar schools would improve things?

[quote PolkadotGiraffe]@ravenmum also as I am certain you know, Germany has many good educational programmes leading to careers in technical occupations, which the UK does not. I think we really fail our young people here with the education we offer and the opportunities they have a a result. [/quote]
Yes, very much so, though it sounds like things are a bit better since I was in school in the 1980s. Funny that apprenticeships used to be looked down on, even though I well remember the anti-academic snobbery you describe above.

A personal favourite of mine was from my XH. He was an abusive bastard but it did always make me smile when he said ‘camel flarge’.

I never mind if people miss-speak or miss-spell. It’s very rare for me not to be able to still know exactly what they mean so it’s not a drama. My brother is severely dyslexic as is my DS. Not everyone is the same, and regardless of reason why make someone feel small and stupid when you still understand what they mean just fine.

The only exceptions for me are communications from school, which I feel so have a duty to be accurate and correct to model the correct grammar and spelling, and also communications from businesses and organisations, because even though written by an individual, they are representing a company and should therefore take extra care to be accurate and correct.

I find it weird that people who are bad at english / SPAG are to be mocked, but then loads of highly educated intelligent people absolutely revel in being shit at maths / ignorant of science!

John Humphrys used to be the absolute worst for this on the Today programme on Radio 4.

One is seen as shameful, the other as a weird badge of honour

I agree that lack of ability in either is not likely to be down to laziness or stupidity. So there

@ultragroupie

I find it weird that people who are bad at english / SPAG are to be mocked, but then loads of highly educated intelligent people absolutely revel in being shit at maths / ignorant of science!

John Humphrys used to be the absolute worst for this on the Today programme on Radio 4.

One is seen as shameful, the other as a weird badge of honour

I agree that lack of ability in either is not likely to be down to laziness or stupidity. So there

this is so so so true. It drives my scientist DH barmy. In fact he could have written that sentence about John Humphreys! [looks to see if DH is a secret MNetter]

@Chumleymouse

I thought a curb was a baby fox ☹️

Only in Ashington

airoportoventura I promise I'm not your DH

"I find it weird that people who are bad at english / SPAG are to be mocked, but then loads of highly educated intelligent people absolutely revel in being shit at maths / ignorant of science!"

Hmm. I dropped Maths and Science at the age of 16 and they haven't really been part of my life since then. Very basic maths in the office and that's it I would say whereas writing is part of most people's lives whatever they studied. Someone with a science degree will still need to be able to write about their findings or whatever so I'd say that written communication is more general than Maths and Science.

It's not like people are being mocked for not being able to read Beowulf.

I didn't see the connection between the 'ball ball' and 'bauble' till I said ballball quickly. It becomes (nearly) a bauble😭🤣

@ravenmum

And does not have the fluidity in the system that I suggested, so that children could move between grammar schools and others rather than having an arbitrary cut-off entrance point? I believe Germany did better than the UK in most of the PISA reports in recent years also? There is some flexibility, in that you can change schools later if your marks improve, but it takes a bit of an effort so most people don't bother. I seem to think England didn't manage to hand in the data for the year when Germany did badly, so I don't know how they compared. But looking online, I see that reading literacy has come up again since:

2018:
In reading literacy, the main topic of PISA 2018, 15-year-olds in Germany score 498 points compared to an average of 487 points in OECD countries.

In 2018, England’s pupils achieved a mean score of 505 in reading, which was significantly above the OECD average (487)5, as it was for the first time in 2015(Jerrim et al.,2016).

So not a big difference, but England is slightly ahead.

I was just curious about why you thought grammar schools would improve things?

Because it used to be the case decades ago that they offered a rigorous academic education to children that it suited, from all backgrounds and in all areas, regardless of family wealth etc. It was a common route out of poverty and into University and professional occupations for disadvantaged children. I know quite a few people who came from very poor households who went to grammar schools then some of the best universities and had successful careers who firmly believe that, were they growing up in those same areas today, where those grammar schools no longer exist, that would not have happened.

@dreamthemoors, no that is not always possible. Depends on the autocorrect feature, but I have used one where the correction took place between typing and posting. Changing it to hilarious things, couldn't spell my name or my relations' names (as non-English). No backspacing and correcting possible.

"I know quite a few people who came from very poor households who went to grammar schools then some of the best universities and had successful careers who firmly believe that, were they growing up in those same areas today, where those grammar schools no longer exist, that would not have happened."

I think those people aren't correct though. There was a generalised shift in the economy in the 50s and 60s that allowed a lot of social mobility. Jobs and uni places became available that weren't available before. That's why that generation did better than their parents. Going to comprehensive schools wouldn't have hindered those bright people from getting those jobs and it would have been much better for those who would otherwise have been 'relegated' to a secondary modern school.

There was a recent thread : Toddler drank wine-fuming.

What is wine-fuming?

Should have been: Toddler drank wine - fuming.

[quote ravenmum]@Seymour5 I remember it as a stationAry cAr. But it's still a mistake people make all the time, like reign/rein.[/quote]
That’s my mnemonic for it, too!

What is wine-fuming?

Ah that little hyphen is such a pest.

@PolkadotGiraffe Well, it's certainly a shame when people's options are reduced. I was one of the children who couldn't get into grammar school through innate ability - I was one of the youngest in my year, immature - but was happy that I got to go to university via a comprehensive (an option my children didn't have in this part of Germany). But having seen what it was like at the kids' grammar schools, I did appreciate the fact that the students were mainly quite studious, there was less physical bullying etc. Most did still seem to need support from parents or tutors, though.

Do you think that a really bright child of the kind that could make it through grammar school without much parental support would do well at a comprehensive, too? Or are you thinking about the social mobility aspects, and their chances at very high-flying careers?

@TheFormerChild

There was a recent thread : Toddler drank wine-fuming.

What is wine-fuming?

Should have been: Toddler drank wine - fuming.

Should have been: Toddler drank wine – fuming. With a dash, not a hyphen :)

It's not like people are being mocked for not being able to read Beowulf.

Search twitter for "bafoon"

“To give children the best chance in life we should give them every chance and encouragement to reach a basic standard of literacy, and "ball ball" to be honest falls far short of that.”

Completely agree with the first part of the sentence. Second part is ridiculous. The odd error (eg ball ball instead of bauble) isn’t a massive indicator that an individual has been failed by the education system. It’s a word that most people would hardly ever write down or see written down. Plus baubles are shaped like balls so you can kind of understand why someone would make that mistake.

Think some of the faux concern on here about how awful it is that certain people can’t spell infrequently used words properly (shock horror) is actually just an excuse to feel superior and sneer, whilst judging others as lazy, unmotivated etc.

And the award for perching on the high moral ground goes to...

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻