Really very sad with France!

[Friendsoftheearth]

I am quietly furious with France. We have been going to France between three and four times a year, every year for pretty much all of my adult life. We have spent most summer holidays, skiing and all the rest, choosing France as our destination over all over countries.

Every week I buy French cheeses, wine and truffle oils, and we are very big fans of France and French cuisine.

Even taking into account that Macron should hope and push for the best deal for their fishing industry, I still find it incredulous and insulting that they should be demanding ten years of fish, and are offering us a paltry percentage. Ten years.
They are in a total stand off regarding an even playing field, I understand the reasons for this, but honestly they are pushing all of us to a no deal outcome, that will see French fisherman with no catch whatsoever, and high tariffs slapped on all imports from France. Tourism will be destroyed as people will no longer wish to go there. It could poison relations for decades.

I am aware of the history between the UK and France, but rather naively thought we had moved on from that a very long time ago, I am in despair at the eleventh hour demands, and feel this is in very bad faith. It has really highlighted to me how little respect France have for us as a country.

I feel like I never want to go again, despite having a tentative booking for a holiday in the spring of next year.

[quote CroissantMuncher]@TheKeatingFive
The polls in the UK indicated a Remain win[/quote]
Nigel's polls which he was privy to, indicated a Leave win. Which is why he declared defeat, only to walk it back later.

This thread was just started to cause the argument it has. All this war like talk about 'them' being in 'our' waters. The OP is obviously not thick enough to believe her purchasing camembert and Calvados would have any effect on UK France relations. She is baiting you all. Who knows why, but if this attitude spreads it would certainly suit our current scabrous fuck up of a government.

@TheKeatingFive
But I never said anything about surveys or polls. That's your line of inquiry, not mine. And disregarding the UK polls as proof of how cherry picked statistics dont always align with reality just makes you look ridiculous.

I think you just cant handle the main point I picked up on, which is that ireland has every reason to stay in the EU, one being using its funds, and the other being to undercut other EU countries and allow big tech companies to get away with minimal tax. Does that not bother you at all?

I laugh when people say that the U.K. is a tiny fish - it is the 5th biggest economy in the world! It’s the second biggest economy in Europe!

I immigrated to the U.K. 12 years ago and always find it funny how British people love to belittle their country!

Yanbu you are getting far too worked up. Macron is negotiating the way he and his team of advisors have determined will be most beneficial for France and for his own political position. It is entirely predictable that the French would not lie down quietly in these negotiations. It is the UK that wanted to negotiate a Brexit, we can hardly complain .

There is always a lot of posturing in these negotiations, so the politicians can go home and tell their electorates that they fought as hard as they could.

Ok OP, stop buying your lovely French cheeses wine and truffle oil then and going on lovely holidays to France, that will show them

For all the Brexiters arguing about only U.K. fishing vessels being allowed to fish in U.K. waters and not having the tapering that the EU wants - who do they think buys all that fish? The U.K. doesn't eat that much fish, the largest market for the U.K. fishing industry is the EU. If we end up with no deal, and massive tariffs on imports / exports with the EU - whoopy do - U.K. fishermen will be able to solely catch all the fish in U.K. waters and then.....not be able to sell it.

What a massive fucking own goal everything about Brexit is.....

@bellinisurge

I think it’s true to say that the vote was close and therefore there are a large minority of the voters were remainders.

We have a representative government who has been trying to balance the mandate to leave along with the fact there was a significant minority who wanted to stay.

The greater the number of simultaneous outcomes required and the more nuanced they are, the harder negotiationing a good outcome becomes.

For the French, it’s not that complicated.

I laugh when people say that the U.K. is a tiny fish - it is the 5th biggest economy in the world! It’s the second biggest economy in Europe!

We rely on everyone else to keep our economy strong. We’re burning bridges.

No, nobody else is going to leave the EU. In most countries popular support for the EU is at least 75%.

Not in France, support for the EU is lower than average, but consistently still above 65%. Even Marine Le Pen doesn't want to leave the EU anymore! No French politician is going to be dumb enough to offer a Frexit referendum.

Yes there is a lot of squabbling within the EU, everyone is looking out for their interests. I think most people prefer that to the old days when countries would go to war instead.

FYI we have more french tourists than any of nationality.

The OP feeling insulted is really weird. So she expected the French government to shaft its own people just because she buys French cheese and goes on holiday to Brittany? And she takes it as a personal slight when they don't do that? The mind boggles.

OP, perhaps people in the EU were "insulted" when we decided to leave their club? Or perhaps they are just looking out for their own economic interests, you know, as most countries do.

I really worry about our democracy when I see people operating at this sort of level.

a large minority of remainders have been holding it back from doing so.

Ah go on @Empressofthemundane, who are these people and how have they been doing this ?

Does that not bother you at all?

Why would it bother me? . Countries adopt financial strategies.

Anyway, my point is, you can’t expect anyone to take you seriously on the ‘lots of other countries want to leave’ when you have absolutely no evidence of that, except for a few nutters with placards in street corners.

Come back and make that point when you have something to concrete to back it up and then perhaps people will give you the time of day.

Imagine having a personal beef with France over Brexit and thinking you had a point cause you’ve stayed in a couple of gites and ate some baguette.

Perhaps France hasn’t clocked just how much cheese the OP eats. Maybe it’s a colossal amount. They should probably check their figures.

You know half of England's quota were sold to foreign companies right?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116

If you boycott France over this I think you'll be a tiny minority. Of course France is going to advocate for what suits them best, why would they roll over and shaft their fish industry? In a divorce both sides fight their corner and both end up financially poorer -the UK has to give something up.

I don't think it will affect holidays in France and demand for French produce like wine and cheese because most people in the uk know it's not personal. If it makes you feel better change your skiing holiday to Germany or Switzerland

The Eu isn't the UN . It is a economic and political union which acts mainly for the benefit of big business. It is not the Scouts! Freedom of movement helps large business to reduce their staffing costs. I am a remainder because I live in the south east and have specialist qualifications so was not affected by the increase in numbers of lower paid workers. Living and studying abroad were an option. I come from an area in the north east with low employment where the vast majority if jobs are minimum wage. If i still lived there I would have voted for Brexit for sure. Ultimately I would have preferred to stay in the EU and i hope we (at some point in the future) are able to re-join. We are leaving though and we have to get the best deal for the UK as do France. I think ultimately we have to act in our own best interest in the same way that France is. A No Deal would be a disaster for all of Europe in lots of different ways (for example France relies heaving on UK security information) . The EU and the Uk both need to compromise otherwise it will damage us all at a time when the world is facing huge challenges.

@frumpety

Please see my response to @bellinisurge above.

@WhyDoYouAsk sorry about the typos. My phone doesn’t recognise “remainers” and aggressively auto-corrects. But I think you all are clever enough to work it out.

People on here do not like to admit that we have more in common with Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the US

Funnily enough, it was a trip the US that made me realise that I had more in common with mainland Europeans than I do with Americans. And I only stayed in NY and New England, so it's not like I was in the world of gun-toting rednecks who marry their cousins.

We may speak the same language as the majority of people in the US, but nearly all the words in it come from Latin, Greek, French or Saxon (German). And I feel more at home in any European country I have visited than I did in the US.

@ThePlantsitter

This thread was just started to cause the argument it has. All this war like talk about 'them' being in 'our' waters. The OP is obviously not thick enough to believe her purchasing camembert and Calvados would have any effect on UK France relations. She is baiting you all. Who knows why, but if this attitude spreads it would certainly suit our current scabrous fuck up of a government.

I think we’re all well aware of the fact that the OP isn’t posting in earnest. But it’s brought out a few people who appear to be, and it’s fascinating to unpick their thought processes.

I also want to know more about the secret cadre of Remainer saboteurs who are wrecking the smooth trajectory of ‘Get Brexit Done’! by wedging wheels of English cheddar into the negotiating process.

Thanks for that link TicTac this is so interesting:

As fishing is a devolved policy, the way the quota is managed differs around the UK.

England and Wales, where a majority voted for Brexit, have both allowed foreign ownership of more than half their fishing quota.

In Wales, which is allocated a tiny share of the UK quota, the figure is as high as 85% of the annual value - most of it held by one big industrial trawler.

But in Scotland, which is responsible for about 60% of the UK quota, only 4% of the annual value in 2019 was in foreign hands. In Northern Ireland the figure was 2%.

"The Scottish fishing industry is largely made up of family-owned businesses," said Elspeth MacDonald, from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation.

"These businesses have developed the industry during the good times and have had the desire and resolve to hold on through difficult times, when others have not."

[quote MarieG10]@ReturntoSpamfritters

"You are wrong, any form of Brexshit will be far worse than Corona."
Well again...what reference do you have or is this your uniformed opinion? I suggest you look at the IFS (Institute for Fiscal Studies). The hit from Brexit is no way as bad as Covid. Fact not personal opinion, although not that we would want any hit at all

[/quote]
A no-deal Brexit will do more damage to the economy than the coronavirus, Bank of England governor warns

www.businessinsider.com/brexit-impact-worse-than-coronavirus-andrew-bailey-bank-of-england-2020-11

No-deal Brexit would hit economy harder than Covid, OBR warns

www.theweek.co.uk/108781/no-deal-brexit-would-hit-economy-harder-than-coronavirus

And I think you’ll find that the IFS has warned that Covid has made it harder for the UK to prepare for a no deal Brexit.

The shock from Brexit will affect different sectors from the COVID shock, meaning that Brexit is likely to cause additional economic pain even as the economy recovers from the virus-driven downturn. In addition, we think COVID is likely to have hampered public and private preparations for the end of the Brexit transition period, compounding the near-term economic cost.

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/15079

@KleinBlue

I’m lazy so I’m just going to cut and paste what I said before:

*We have a representative government who has been trying to balance the mandate to leave along with the fact there was a significant minority who wanted to stay.

The greater the number of simultaneous outcomes required and the more nuanced they are, the harder negotiationing a good outcome becomes.

For the French, it’s not that complicated.*

There is no secret group of “saboteurs.” It’s just the dynamics of the situation.

At the end of the day , the Conservative Government offered the referendum to the UK population, the Conservative Government triggered article 50 and the Conservative Government are the ones in charge of UK negotiations. The Conservative Government with their absolutely stonking majority are entirely responsible for the outcome, whatever that might be. Or you could blame France

a large minority of remainders have been holding it back from doing so.

Please shed some light on how the "remainders" have been holding things back? I am really struggling to know how they are doing this when we have a government that is dominated by the leaders of the leave campaign. How is the government's failure to get a deal the fault of remainers now?

You don't get your assets back if you have sold them. There is no court that would dispute that

I haven't read the wording of a fishing licence, but a license is a permission from the UK government, and as such I think it will always have had political risk attached. There will always have been a possibility of the terms being altered or restricted. I doubt it was worded as an unfettered permission that would last for eternity. (Or if it was so worded, it was understood that that was not the legal reality. The government of the day cannot absolutely bind a future government to its promises. There may be moral and reputational reasons to stick to agreements, but ultimately they are legally revocable.)

I think it would be wrong to simply revoke the licences, but as far as I know that's not what the UK government is planning. They are simply planning to refine the terms so that boats need more British crew and land more catch in the UK. As it happens, I don't like those restrictions, I believe market forces should determine factor like those. If Britain is going to tighten the terms on fishing licenses to claw back some collective economic advantage for the UK, a licence fee on the quota would be the way to do it. (That fee would be the same regardless of nationality of the quota owners, or their workers, or where the fish were landed.)