To think that the people who pay extortionate prices for puppies are just as much to blame for the puppy farming trade as the puppy farmers themselves?

[AlternativePerspective]

It goes without saying that puppy farmers are despicable human beings. However the reason why they are able to unscrupulously breed and sell puppies for such horrific amounts of money is because there are people out there who are willing to pay their prices.And the more they pay, the more dogs they will breed, and so the cycle continues.

There have been plenty of articles recently of puppy prices more than doubling over lockdown even from so-called reputable breeders...

Yesterday I was talking to my sister about what to get my mum for Christmas,and as a joke I said that my dad should get her a puppy,and I found a link to one of the breeds we had as kids on petsforhomes.They were £3500.

Now I will add here that there was never any actual intention to buy a puppy, but clearly someone will buy those puppies,and someone will make a fortune from selling them.

So, if you’re paying £2500/3000/3500 for a puppy then you are part of the reason why the puppy farming trade exists.

I think people who want to rescue a dog don’t tend to try for one week and then give up. It tends to be a process extending into months and months.

I personally see it purely as supply and demand. The mythical MN breeder who makes no profit from their puppies is just that: mythical.

If a breeder health tests her bitch and ensures the stud goes through similar tests, ensures the best food and bedding, adequate care from a vet throughout the duration (including being prepared to forgo any profit if needed) and so on, I do not care a jot if at the end of that process, a few thousand are put in the bank.

I DO care and everybody should care, when that few thousand are more important than the health of the dogs or puppies. That is different. There is however no existing law stating ‘making a profit from your hobby or business is wrong.’

I have a friend who is an artist: he paints for love, and as a hobby - and banks several hundred when a painting is sold. Breeding puppies, a breed you love, is similar.

If a family with children wants a dog, where would you suggest they get it from, OP?

Mind, I expect that rescues might soon ease their criteria. When covid is over and people are forced back into the office, I bet loads will become a burden and rescues will be overwhelmed.

This explains perfectly why rescue centres have such strict criteria. Lots of people with good intentions get a puppy as a family pet but soon find out that a dog is a huge commitment both financially and in terms of time. These dogs end up in rescue centres when the owners have failed to such an extent that they can no longer cope with the dog. These dogs then become difficult to rehome because of behavioural issues that have arisen from lack of training or too much time on their own. Plenty of comments here from people who don't want a rescue because it might have "issues".

Is it any wonder rescue centres use criteria to screen out potential owners who, in their vast experience, are not best placed to give dogs, who have been fucked up by people, a loving forever home.

For anyone considering a puppy I would urge you to research the scams puppy mills use to conceal the origins of the dogs for sale, it's almost impossible to be sure your puppy hasn't come from a mill unless you know the breeder personally. The standards for registered breeders are either so low or poorly enforced that conditions are all too often barely any better than mills.

I would also encourage people to research the conditions breeding dogs are kept in, there are plenty of YouTube channels out there run by large, puppy mill specific, rescue organisations. Have tissues handy, the footage is harrowing.

I also think that rescues need to take some of the blame for puppy farms! They make it absolutely impossible for your average family to rescue a dog!

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned. But a concern regarding the fashion for mixed breeds is that this facilitates puppy farming. The Kennel club have strict rules and will only register a maximum of four litters from any one bitch, they also must not have more than one litter in a year and there are age restrictions too.
Of course if you are buying a mixed breed it will not be registered with the kennel club, even if the parents are pedigree. So there are none of these protections applicable for the dog.

Exactly where in my OP did I say that people should get rescues only? I didn’t.

I totally understand that people would want a puppy. If I were in the market for a dog I would get a puppy. But if you’re getting a puppy then it should be from a reputable breeder Who does home checks well in advance, has a waiting list for puppies and doesn’t increase the prices just because everyone else has.

And for those who say that breeders would put up their prices to stop the puppy from being sold on, bollocks. Someone could pay £2500 for a puppy from someone and still take it home and breed from it and sell those puppies on in their own right. If someone is going to make money from a dog they will make money from it regardless of whether they spent 1 or £2k.

If a breeder has put up their prices then they’re not a reputable breeder, however nice they might appear to be.

The issue is that the people who will pay £2500 for a puppy are encouraging puppy farming, yes, it already existed but there is a bigger incentive for it now.

That does not include people who seek out genuinely reputable breeders, and I understand that these days it’s virtually impossible to know as they often will go to great lengths to come across as genuine. E.g. I know of someone who had been in touch with a breeder for several months, home vetted, names and addresses swapped etc etc etc, and when they went to collect the puppy they were called on the way to say the owner’s father had had a stroke and could they go to another address. Alarm bells at that point but they drove up there and it turned out to be a traveller sight. All the documents etc had been faked.

This person is a police officer and they managed to fool her, but she hadn’t been intending to spend a couple of grand at the time...

My personal view is that it should be illegal to profit from the sale of animals. That way you would shut down the puppy farming industry overnight.

As for rescues, they are an entirely different discussion. Firstly there are rarely any of the kinds of family breeds available in rescues, they tend to all be Staffies and so on. But secondly, most rescues do I believe make it deliberately difficult to adopt dogs and in some instances some dogs should be put down for their own benefit. Like those charities who say “we will never put a healthy dog down” but in the same sentence ask for sponsorship because the dog can never be rehomed. Sorry, but if the dog is so traumatised that it can never be rehomed then it’s not a healthy dog and should be put out of its misery rather than used as a prop for the charity to make more money. There are in fact worse things that can happen to a dog than it having to be put to sleep.

As for rehoming, did anyone watch that episode of For the love of dogs where they were attempting to find homes for all the dogs in Battersea before lockdown? They rehomed over 65 dogs in three days. So why can’t they rehome more the rest of the time? Or are we to believe they let the welfare of the animals slide this time for a quick rehoming?

So a reputable breeder does not profit, at all, is that what we are saying?

Ethical businesses are a murky water. When lockdown first happened, I was impressed by companies who continued to ensure their staff were fully paid (for example, my hairdresser topped up the furlough money so that the employees at her salon had 100% at cost to herself.) That is what ethical means to me. Not that you don’t make a profit, just that you are prepared NOT to make a profit or a reduced profit for the health or wellbeing of animals, or the environment, or your employees, ideally all the above.

Market values dictate the price of something. Others may deem it a waste but if it’s what something is worth, and they want it, it is worth that. I really fail to see why people get up in arms about this.

Firstly there are rarely any of the kinds of family breeds available in rescues, they tend to all be Staffies and so on.

Staffies are fantastic family dogs.

Actually OP the battersea programme largely proves what I and others are saying here.

In exceptional circumstances, dogs were rehomed and rehomed quickly. There are people out there wanting to adopt dogs.

However, normally this doesn’t happen. There are all sorts of reasons for this. Some good. Some IMO not so good.

They are said to be brilliant family dogs certainly but they aren’t for me.

We all have a pull towards different breeds or different types of dogs. There is nothing wrong with this. But if someone repeatedly says ‘this breed is not for me’ I think that needs to be respected.

Staffies are fantastic family dogs. be that as it may, most families don’t want a staffie, besides which, most staffies who end up in rescue end up there because some moron has bought one to enhance their image and then got bored of it.

And whether people like it or not, staffies do have a certain negative image attached to them, and that is not helped by the fact that many rescues won’t rehome to homes with children, so people are unlikely to want to rescue one over say, a poodle or a lab.

Stafford are perfectly fine family dogs but a rescue would be correct in not homing one to me. We live in a small flat and just wouldn't have the space. How wet the blanket ban is silly. Our JRT is smaller than your average cat so has loads of space to play and suits our lifestyle perfectly. It's a breed though that having dc I'd certainly want a puppy.

Surely if you've never had a dog before and that's what price you find when you research then it's the going rate?

Saying it's the fault of people for paying those prices is surely the same as saying people shouldn't be paying six figures for a house and it's people buying houses at stupid prices which has caused the housing market to balloon?

There should be better regulation and maybe price controls on the sale of live animals if you really want to stop puppy farming.

Or bring back dog licences.

Surely the extortionate prices people are now willing to pay for puppies is also the reason for the massive increase in dog thefts?

I don't understand why anyone pays for pets when there are so many unwanted animals in shelters.

My two cats are lovely little things and the best part is they are unique and their own characters. Not designer or perfect, but they are in my eyes :)

Yorkshire it’s been covered thoroughly now.

In any case, cats are totally different to dogs. I’ve always adopted my cats from shelters. A cat who doesn’t really fit into family life is neither here nor there. A dog who doesn’t can actually ruin your life.

Firstly there are rarely any of the kinds of family breeds available in rescues, they tend to all be Staffies and so on.

This isn't true. When I went to battersea to adopt my dog there were three Silky Terriers, a Yorkshire Terrier, a Dalmatian, several labs and golden retrievers, a few lab mixes, cavaliers and other spaniels, a Westie and Scottie, Great Danes, German Shepards, etc. Of course there were also Staffies and Staffie mixes, Lurchers, Greyhounds and a Rotweiler. I dare say without meeting each individual dog it's hard to know which would be the best fit for your family. Some of the 'cute' dogs I was told were known biters, didn't like to be held, were scared of children, etc. I listened to the staff and went home with a Staffie mix whom I've now had for five years. She isn't the dog I thought I would want when I applied to adopt, but the staff knew the dogs well and I trusted that. I love my girl and she has been the perfect family dog for us.

I’m fed up of hearing people say that they couldn’t get a rescue dog so what were they supposed to do in order to justify buying a puppy with possibly murky origins. Nobody has a right to own a dog.

We need to be discouraging pet ownership on several grounds. It leads to animal cruelty. It leads to faeces and urine being disposed of in public streets and parks. The environment impact - pets have a sizeable carbon footprint.

no one has the right to own a dog

Except that’s not how the world works. You are free of course to not pay a breeder, not own a dog, but you don’t as things stand get to inform others they cannot.

@Welcometonowhere But I know people who pay 💰 for designer cats because of their fur or character traits.

Just seems like buying a handbag rather than finding your next family member.

My cats have always found me rather than me picking them. It feels nice.

Personally I think higher prices are a good thing.

If you can’t afford to pay for a health tested ethically bred animal then I don’t think you can afford one in the first place. Dogs are expensive and a luxury, not a right.

yorkshire but if they are buying them and then mistreating them, that’s one thing.

If they are buying that breed of cat because they adore that breed, for whatever reason (usually it’s a mixture of reasons) and love and adore them, I don’t see that as a bad thing.

A friend of mine had two Burmese cats. She couldn’t have children and they were as loved and pampered as any cats I’ve ever seen. Her cats, her money, her choice.

You are right OP. People want a pup they'll deliberately ignore where they come.
My friend bought 2 French Bulldogs she didn't give a 2nd thought to where she bought them from once she got them pre lockdown.

It's one of the reasons why so many dogs are being stolen, because they are basically money making machines. £4-5k per pup. It's ridiculous.

As for 'ethical' breeding...apparently the Kennel Club endorse breeding from half siblings (one shared parent). I found that pretty appalling. No wonder so many pups now have genetic issues

Even cats are going the same way. I've seen a few unsavoury people locally flogging kittens for up to £100 each. Just standard moggies, not a special breed. One of them the mum was barely a year old.

I'm a veterinary nurse and this is my opinion...

Reputable breeders have had to put up their prices, to circumnavigate those people looking to buy and sell on for profit.

As long as all the checks are made, such as seeing the mum and puppies multiple times (and possibly the dad), seeing health screens, vaccine history and verifying any KC details, and checking references, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a puppy, as long as you can afford everything that goes along with owning a dog.

Most rescue centres do have a blanket ban on people with children under 8, people with cats, people without a garden etc. It can be very hard to rehome a dog, and most inevitably come with behavioural issues, which is why they aren't rehomed to families with children. History of abuse isn't always fully known and rescue dogs can be unpredictable and aggressive. Therefore, rescues aren't for everyone.

I think it's a bit over the top to say that someone who has done their homework, fully vetted a breeder, and done all the right research before buying a puppy is encouraging puppy farming.

But that's just my professional, 20 years in the veterinary industry opinion.