AIBU to ask your opinions on God?

[Violetduck]

Do you beleive there is a God? I would like to, but how can he exist alongside modern science?

Aibu to believe in something more?

Lofari

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

This is a really interesting article.

It’s nonsensical. There is physical evidence that Sweden exists. There is no physical evidence that gods exist. Atheism is not faith. It’s absence of faith. If there were no religions there would be no atheism.

However, you’re at risk of double standards because it could be argued the other side too with “atheists trying to force their opinions that god does not exist to others who do believe in god in order to restrict their lives”.

What do you mean by this? I am not trying to restrict the lives of those who are religious.what evidence can you present to support this assertion?

Like, where is the person of faith or belief coming from? What makes them tick? They’re not exactly alone in the world, so it’s worth empathising. Likewise for the believer it’s worth seeing from the perspective of an atheist. That kind of mental agility is not easy for either position imo.

That’s a bit patronising, isn’t it? What do you mean exactly? I understand what it is like to believe, because I used to believe, and I understand the comfort faith brings.

I don’t want to stop people from believing, and very rarely do I encounter anyone who wants to force me to believe. But there’s no doubt organised religion, alongside its good works, has caused great harm in the name of God, especially to women and girls. No amount of empathising can alter that.

I don’t think you understood the article. Pretty sure the author addresses that in the dialogue. Maybe it’s too philosophical or a bad example...

As an aside, perhaps it’s requiring physical evidence for god that might be the issue? Manage expectations. For some people God is found within nature and the mathematical language of the universe; that is the physical evidence for them.

I just said you were at risk of double standards. Can you really not perceive that? By definition telling someone what they believe does not exist is restricting their lives...
Example. If faith in god is giving someone going through a hard time some comfort, then how is you coming along with “but god doesn’t exist there’s no physical evidence” not restricting their coping strategy? That’s not to say you shouldn’t voice your views but just be aware of the possibility of double standards... A religious person telling a non-religious person they need to find God probably doesn’t have the intentions of restricting their lives either (they think they’re helping) in the same way an atheist may think they’re helping by saying “you’re wasting your time because god doesn’t exist”.

@Lofari

No God in my eyes. My 5 year old has a muscle wasting disease that will rob him of all movement before taking his life at a young age.

I hope science finds a way of helping your son. They’re making progress all the time.

Especially those who stand on boxes in pedestrian precincts shouting incomprehensibly through loud hailers .

I'm a practicing Christian and I also think shouting at people through loudhailers is a terrible idea.

Lofari

@Lofari - I hope your DC is doing ok. It’s situations like yours that confirms to me that there is no god.

Xnon I don't think you can legitimately compare an atheist telling a believer who is going through tough times that there is no God (which would be a shitty thing to do by the way) with the influence that faith has had on politics, which has absolutely restricted the lives of others. Not so long ago, gay people were not allowed to marry. Who agitated against allowing marriage equality? Not atheists. In Saudi Arabia, announcing that you have no faith can land you in court - again, faith influencing governments and restricting people's lives. Then there's abortion rights - granted, the position there is not so clear cut because there are atheists who oppose abortion, but the most vocal opposition comes from those who invoke faith.

I don't think you can compare all that to an atheist telling someone there is no God.

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

Xnon I don't think you can legitimately compare an atheist telling a believer who is going through tough times that there is no God (which would be a shitty thing to do by the way) with the influence that faith has had on politics, which has absolutely restricted the lives of others. Not so long ago, gay people were not allowed to marry. Who agitated against allowing marriage equality? Not atheists. In Saudi Arabia, announcing that you have no faith can land you in court - again, faith influencing governments and restricting people's lives. Then there's abortion rights - granted, the position there is not so clear cut because there are atheists who oppose abortion, but the most vocal opposition comes from those who invoke faith.

I don't think you can compare all that to an atheist telling someone there is no God.

I just think there’s a risk of double standards.

Also, I was referring more to a personal belief in god rather than the political use of god. They’re different things imo. If that makes sense?

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

Xnon I don't think you can legitimately compare an atheist telling a believer who is going through tough times that there is no God (which would be a shitty thing to do by the way) with the influence that faith has had on politics, which has absolutely restricted the lives of others. Not so long ago, gay people were not allowed to marry. Who agitated against allowing marriage equality? Not atheists. In Saudi Arabia, announcing that you have no faith can land you in court - again, faith influencing governments and restricting people's lives. Then there's abortion rights - granted, the position there is not so clear cut because there are atheists who oppose abortion, but the most vocal opposition comes from those who invoke faith.

I don't think you can compare all that to an atheist telling someone there is no God.

Also, I have personally known a guy (atheist) who actively went out his way to discourage faith in god to a work colleague friend going through bereavement because he believed it was illogical to find comfort in god etc. Work colleague Friend was coping with ideas of “mum’s in heaven” and the guy was like “no because there is no heaven; that’s just religion”. In his mind he thought he was helping her with logic and reality; he couldn’t see the value in finding comfort in faith.

I guess I’m talking about individuals and individual situations. Personal faith.

I agree that lots of awful things are done in the name of God. But is that belief in god or using god to push an agenda? Dr Robert Knox did some awful things in the name of science.

I don't think you can separate individual faith and the impact of collective faith in that way, not if you look at what's happening out there in the world. Look at the hideous homophobic rhetoric coming out of many African countries, all claiming to be 'Christian' as a justification. If as a believer you are opposed to that kind of behaviour, you need to take responsibility and act. That means for example that CofE Christians here in the UK need to raise this in the General Synod, where clerics from those countries (who are complicit) can be confronted and held to account. The whole CofE is to blame here and is responsible for the way the lives of gay people in places like Uganda are being made hell. No believer can escape that responsibility.

The atheist mentioned in your example is a dick. If anyone were to do that in my presence, they'd find themselves dragged out of the room and spoken to.

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

I don't think you can separate individual faith and the impact of collective faith in that way, not if you look at what's happening out there in the world. Look at the hideous homophobic rhetoric coming out of many African countries, all claiming to be 'Christian' as a justification. If as a believer you are opposed to that kind of behaviour, you need to take responsibility and act. That means for example that CofE Christians here in the UK need to raise this in the General Synod, where clerics from those countries (who are complicit) can be confronted and held to account. The whole CofE is to blame here and is responsible for the way the lives of gay people in places like Uganda are being made hell. No believer can escape that responsibility.

The atheist mentioned in your example is a dick. If anyone were to do that in my presence, they'd find themselves dragged out of the room and spoken to.

That is awful. And yes history shows that churches and organised religion have a lot to answer for. Slavery for another example. Often there seems to be self interest or arrogance involved...

Hmm I think there is a difference between individual faith and collective faith. The latter is more like tribalism and involves politics.

I know of catholics who don’t agree with much of what the church says but agree with what Jesus (Apparently) taught. Their individual faith comes from the source more so than the middle man (church) they were introduced to through their parents and upbringing.

@ArrowsOfMistletoe “The whole CofE is to blame here and is responsible for the way the lives of gay people in places like Uganda are being made hell. No believer can escape that responsibility.”

The problem is whether the whole of the CofE congregation is aware? If they’re not aware what the church says and does then I’m not sure how they can take responsibility?

The issue I suppose is that it’s quite hard for the average believer to have their individual voices heard if they are opposing something collective or more powerful. They’d be shut down immediately and dismissed as a loon. It requires a lot of courage and risk to stand up to a massive organisation like that.

Rank hypocrisy and all that we have already covered.

Also, the Supreme Governors of the CofE is the monarch/royal family. Maybe they should add that to one of their causes?

Of course they're aware. Unless they're living in a cave and never read newspapers or watch the news. As for the Royal Family - yes, maybe they should speak up. It would be good if they did something useful.

Of course the CofE is only one example - there are many examples worldwide of organised religions impacting on the lives of others in ways that are unacceptable. And everyone who subscribes to one of those faiths should speak up or be complicit.

I have only read the first couple of pages of this thread but it made me sad.

Yes I believe. And I know because I can feel it. And it brings great comfort and help, at all sorts of times. But you have to be open to it.

@CoconutQueen

I have only read the first couple of pages of this thread but it made me sad.

Yes I believe. And I know because I can feel it. And it brings great comfort and help, at all sorts of times. But you have to be open to it.

Why did it make you sad?

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

Of course they're aware. Unless they're living in a cave and never read newspapers or watch the news. As for the Royal Family - yes, maybe they should speak up. It would be good if they did something useful.

Of course the CofE is only one example - there are many examples worldwide of organised religions impacting on the lives of others in ways that are unacceptable. And everyone who subscribes to one of those faiths should speak up or be complicit.

“And everyone who subscribes to one of those faiths should speak up or be complicit”

They should but I wonder if the issue is that they can’t? Or at least can’t without risk of alienation? A lot of organised religion is about subservience and ‘Fitting in’. No one wants to be seen as or with the trouble maker, even if the trouble maker has a valid point.

The classic Christian story is that of God and his favour angel Lucifer. Lucifer apparently rebels then condemned to hell as the devil. The message within organised religion or any organisation seems to be: the big guy always wins. David beating Goliath is rare.

The royal family perhaps have more onus on them to speak up because they actually have the position of authority as supreme governor. A Diana or Meghan type might speak up. But I doubt anyone else would have the courage and strength because they survive through silence (and complicity by default).

Yes. I am a Catholic, became one at the age of 17 and have a degree in theology.

@CoconutQueen - why has the thread made you sad?

I just said you were at risk of double standards. Can you really not perceive that? By definition telling someone what they believe does not exist is restricting their lives...

I’m not going round telling people their gods don’t exist. I’m simply saying that I don’t believe in gods. I’m certainly not trying to stop anyone practising their faith. What I do object to is religion being used to oppress people.

And the article is nonsense, and you are very patronising.

Proving Too Much The cat is an atheist, of course. It doesn’t believe in gods. That’s all “atheist” means. The rock and the potato are not sentient, so are irrelevant.

Neither True, Nor False, But Meaningless Well, no. I do not claim there is no god. I simply do not believe in gods. This is not a faith position.

Belief Leads to Action There are activist atheists, but there are many other kinds of activist too. Are Greenpeace, Amnesty International and the Fabian Society religions in your view?

Ideas Have Consequences So without religion we slip into the moral abyss? I disagree.

Beliefs Attract Beliefs I don’t think the author of this piece understands what science is. It’s not a belief. It’s a method by which we gain understanding by trying to prove the null hypothesis, that’s all. There is much that is not understood.

I Disbelieve, Therefore I Am Society is not constructed around belief in the tooth fairy or Santa, so there’s no need for you to state that you don’t believe in either of them. I agree that being an atheist is a facet of my identity, but there are many other parts of my identity, none of them is a religion. That this one is a negative is because it is contrary to the prevailing societal norm. I also state “not a support human” in my Twitter bio for much the same reason.

It finishes Christians should not mock or belittle atheists, but we must certainly press them and insist they provide evidence, reasons and arguments.

Evidence, reasons and arguments for what? I do not believe because I have never seen any evidence of any gods. What exactly do you think I need to prove? You’re the one making the extraordinary claim, not me.

I don't believe in God, but I do like the concept of religion. I like that it is a comfort to some people and that the bible, for the most part, has good messages behind a lot of the stories, they make you think and re-evaluate if you are being an arsehole lol. But personally, I don't believe in an all seeing, all knowing being.

Christians should not mock or belittle atheists, but we must certainly press them and insist they provide evidence, reasons and arguments.

This is a quote from the article.

Could someone who believes in god please provide evidence, reasons and arguments that prove god exists?

I am an atheist. I do not believe god exists. There is no tangible, irrefutable evidence god exists, hence my belief god doesn't exist. The burden of proof is not on atheists, you cannot prove something that doesn't exist, doesn't exist. It's nonsensical.

However religious people do believe god exists, therefore the onus is on them to provide the evidence, reasons and arguments that they are correct - the accountability they demand of atheists should presumably apply to them too.

So - to those who shared that article or agree with it, please provide evidence of god existing that meets the standard of accuracy and robustness you would ask of an atheist you challenged to prove god doesn't exist.

Many thanks.

Also, I have personally known a guy (atheist) who actively went out his way to discourage faith in god to a work colleague friend going through bereavement because he believed it was illogical to find comfort in god etc. Work colleague Friend was coping with ideas of “mum’s in heaven” and the guy was like “no because there is no heaven; that’s just religion”. In his mind he thought he was helping her with logic and reality; he couldn’t see the value in finding comfort in faith.

That’s horrible Xnon. I wouldn’t condone that at all.

The atheist mentioned in your example is a dick. If anyone were to do that in my presence, they'd find themselves dragged out of the room and spoken to.

Yes. This is the equivalent to yelling at people through loud-hailers. There is a time and place for discussions/explorations like this and they should be invited, not imposed.

@vdbfamily

weighs, it does get pretty tiring to be trolled by you on pretty much every thread I contribute to. Why don't you find something more exciting to do with your time?? My children are teen-agers in the UK and have been taught and believe evolution. I personally believe in natural selection which seems common sense really and in a designer who to me was God. I follow with interest scientific studies on the processes of how it all took place, I just don't believe it was an accident and I believe in a God so mighty that if he had wanted to click his fingers and do it all in 6 days he could have done, but also happen to believe that the days are likely to be eras of time which could be any length of time, seeing as God exists outside of time. Re your accusations about if my children are gay, unsurprisingly we have had that conversation. What they understand of what I believe it's that I would treat no one any differently for having a different opinion or choosing a different path to me. None of my 3 kids have been baptized, that is for them to choose. They would not claim to be Christians either. They know that if they choose to marry a same sex partner, we would be at the wedding and would welcome that person into our family. They also know that as a Christian, I believe that sex was designed to be between a man and woman in a committed relationship and had I not meet DH, I would have remained single and celibate. They also know that not all Christians interpret the Bible like that and they know gay Christians who are friends of ours. Our children are perfectly able to make their minds up about stuff like this and the most important thing to me is that they see us being kind to all. So TROLL away on all my threads but you really do not know me at all.

As far as I know that was the first time I have responded to you.

ANd telling children that gay relationships are wrong is damaging, I don't know how you can't see that.