AIBU to ask your opinions on God?

[Violetduck]

Do you beleive there is a God? I would like to, but how can he exist alongside modern science?

Aibu to believe in something more?

Yes I believe but it’s more connected with nature, so nature is god, basically the entire universe, in which we live. How we move from day to night, get water, breathe, etr is god.

The earth and the harmony of all living things did not come about by accident.

You think all living things are 'in harmony'?
The ichneumon wasp or a parasitic worm make sense in an ecosystem formed by evolution by natural selection. Where do they fit into the handiwork of a benevolent god?

bardofelysays.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-darwin-and-david-attenborough-have.html

I don’t believe in any gods but I do like the idea. It’s comforting to think that you never die but go to heaven and there’s always someone watching over you. But I don’t believe it.

Never ceases to amaze me the confidence people have in there being no god,

Why? I'm not amazed that you're confident that there is no pink elephant hovering above your house in a hot air balloon singing a medley of Queen's greatest hits at this very moment. I'm not very amazed indeed.

@TheSandman now that's something I actually want to believe

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

Never ceases to amaze me the confidence people have in there being no god,

You've misunderstood atheism. We don't have confidence that there is no God, we believe that there is not and we live our lives accordingly. The one thing I am confident in is that I do not need a God to be a worthwhile human being. The rest is uncertainty, and that's fine.

Agree with your first, third and last sentences.

I take issue with your second, and I think that’s why atheists are misunderstood.

It’s not that we believe there isn’t a god, it’s that we do not believe there is a god.

The first is a faith-based assertion, and the last is an absence of belief.

WiseUpJanetWeiss fair enough, and I agree with your wording more than with my original wording. Good catch.

I may just be being daft but i see no difference between those two statements. They are both statements about what you think. You have thought through the evidence and decided that in your opinion there is no God. Not only that but the fact that you think that is important enough to come onto on line threads about faith and try and convince others of your point. Christians have a reason to do that as they are instructed to tell others what they believe and why, but if athiesm is just an absence of belief, why are some athiests so passionate about sharing their(lack of) belief at every opportunity? Genuinely interested in this btw, not just goady.

Xnon sorry, I completely misread the tone of your comment about blind faith in science/scientism. I'm used to hearing that from the real Luddites and I assumed the worst.

I agree that people must have the right to believe what they want. However I don't see faith as harmless as what they believe in many cases is that god wants them to murder, main and oppress. So while anyone must have the freedom to believe they can't also expect me to respect that belief.

I get why people think it is harmless. Many believers in western countries hold very simple beliefs. That god loves them and wants them to celebrate Christmas and Easter and be nice to people when they remember.

That seems ok doesn't it. No real downside there even if they only remember occasionally and when they think god is looking.

That's why we were sent to Sunday School as kids. Completely harmless and what parent doesn't want the kids gone for a bit so they can have some peace & quiet. :)

Except I read the book they hand out to children (King James Version of the Holy Bible) and being an avid reader I read all of it. Christians don't do that usually. After realising what was in it I went on to study it until I'd worn out that copy.

I couldn't respect anyone who worshipped that god. Obviously it was fictional, but imagine wishing that the monster depicted were real? I looked at those church goers in a whole new light and I never again respected someone's beliefs just because they held them.

vdbfamily I don't think any of us atheists on this thread are trying to convince anyone to change their beliefs. We just want some respect for our lack of belief. You tell us that Christians are instructed to tell others what they believe and why, but Christians need to learn and accept that not all of us want to listen. So when we tell you politely that we do not believe and are happy that way, you guys need to shut up and go away and try someone else. That's all we want - for you to accept that we do not want your evangelism. Our lack of belief has as much worth and validity as your faith.

Arrows, I would hope that if you told someone you were not interested that they would respect that and shut up and go away.

vdbfamily you'd hope so, but many of them don't. I've lost count of the times I've been told that 'there's no such thing as atheism', that 'I haven't encountered the tough times in life yet' (this one is very offensive to me!) that 'if I just read this leaflet, I'll get it'. No, I won't. I know you would never force your faith on others, but too many evangelising Christians don't have those boundaries.

I know you would never force your faith on others Lol she definately would. Her children for one, god forbid if theyre gay, or learn about evolution.

@vdbfamily

Arrows, I would hope that if you told someone you were not interested that they would respect that and shut up and go away.

This is where it gets tricky though, because what if you have a child who is gay? Will you be completely accepting of that and want them to be able to love and marry whoever they want? Or would you ask god to change them or encourage them not to express their sexuality?

As many Christians preach love for all but in my opinion it is not loving to believe someone is committing a terrible sin that is against god when they happen to be attracted to people the same sex as them.

weighs, it does get pretty tiring to be trolled by you on pretty much every thread I contribute to. Why don't you find something more exciting to do with your time??
My children are teen-agers in the UK and have been taught and believe evolution. I personally believe in natural selection which seems common sense really and in a designer who to me was God. I follow with interest scientific studies on the processes of how it all took place, I just don't believe it was an accident and I believe in a God so mighty that if he had wanted to click his fingers and do it all in 6 days he could have done, but also happen to believe that the days are likely to be eras of time which could be any length of time, seeing as God exists outside of time.
Re your accusations about if my children are gay, unsurprisingly we have had that conversation. What they understand of what I believe it's that I would treat no one any differently for having a different opinion or choosing a different path to me. None of my 3 kids have been baptized, that is for them to choose. They would not claim to be Christians either. They know that if they choose to marry a same sex partner, we would be at the wedding and would welcome that person into our family. They also know that as a Christian, I believe that sex was designed to be between a man and woman in a committed relationship and had I not meet DH, I would have remained single and celibate. They also know that not all Christians interpret the Bible like that and they know gay Christians who are friends of ours. Our children are perfectly able to make their minds up about stuff like this and the most important thing to me is that they see us being kind to all. So TROLL away on all my threads but you really do not know me at all.

Weighs??? meant weggs

@LastTrainEast

Xnon sorry, I completely misread the tone of your comment about blind faith in science/scientism. I'm used to hearing that from the real Luddites and I assumed the worst.

I agree that people must have the right to believe what they want. However I don't see faith as harmless as what they believe in many cases is that god wants them to murder, main and oppress. So while anyone must have the freedom to believe they can't also expect me to respect that belief.

I get why people think it is harmless. Many believers in western countries hold very simple beliefs. That god loves them and wants them to celebrate Christmas and Easter and be nice to people when they remember.

That seems ok doesn't it. No real downside there even if they only remember occasionally and when they think god is looking.

That's why we were sent to Sunday School as kids. Completely harmless and what parent doesn't want the kids gone for a bit so they can have some peace & quiet. :)

Except I read the book they hand out to children (King James Version of the Holy Bible) and being an avid reader I read all of it. Christians don't do that usually. After realising what was in it I went on to study it until I'd worn out that copy.

I couldn't respect anyone who worshipped that god. Obviously it was fictional, but imagine wishing that the monster depicted were real? I looked at those church goers in a whole new light and I never again respected someone's beliefs just because they held them.

An RE teacher once said that “people forget the bible is not a book; it’s a library of lots of books.”

It’s problematic because it has been edited by various churches for their own propaganda.

Still, some really interesting stuff in there. Jesus can be quite quotable at times too. It might seem like common sense stuff (be nice to each other etc) but only because it’s now so ingrained in society.

There’s “Thou Shalt Not Murder” in the 10 commandments. Suggests early humans needed basic rules like that spelled out to them. What does that say about base human nature?

There’s some useful stuff in the bible. But like you said there’s some things that can be taken the wrong way but that’s down to the interpretation of the reader too. You can’t blame a book for someone’s dangerous interpretation of it, can you? You are right that most Christians probably haven’t read the bible cover go cover...

The bible is considered to be the basis of modern day Western literature; there’s loads of allusions from the bible that keep reoccurring in contemporary fiction. The story of Adam and Eve has been played with loads. It’s useful for that I guess?!

[quote ErrolTheDragon] The earth and the harmony of all living things did not come about by accident.

You think all living things are 'in harmony'?
The ichneumon wasp or a parasitic worm make sense in an ecosystem formed by evolution by natural selection. Where do they fit into the handiwork of a benevolent god?

bardofelysays.blogspot.com/2016/01/why-darwin-and-david-attenborough-have.html[/quote]
I also have doubts about the god presented by the various churches and organised religions.

It’s like there’s something going on but we don’t know what so they Church made up god in their own image to explain the something going on.

“fool’s gold exists because there is real gold” - Rumi

Honestly I do not believe in religion however I believe there is some sort of higher power, weather it's God or a kind of energy I'm not sure. I believe in spirits and that once we die we enter the spiritual world. I think I believe in this because I had an out of body experience and I was literally a ball of energy and then went back into my body. I also believe we are more powerful than we think we are.

@LastTrainEast

Xnon sorry, I completely misread the tone of your comment about blind faith in science/scientism. I'm used to hearing that from the real Luddites and I assumed the worst.

I agree that people must have the right to believe what they want. However I don't see faith as harmless as what they believe in many cases is that god wants them to murder, main and oppress. So while anyone must have the freedom to believe they can't also expect me to respect that belief.

I get why people think it is harmless. Many believers in western countries hold very simple beliefs. That god loves them and wants them to celebrate Christmas and Easter and be nice to people when they remember.

That seems ok doesn't it. No real downside there even if they only remember occasionally and when they think god is looking.

That's why we were sent to Sunday School as kids. Completely harmless and what parent doesn't want the kids gone for a bit so they can have some peace & quiet. :)

Except I read the book they hand out to children (King James Version of the Holy Bible) and being an avid reader I read all of it. Christians don't do that usually. After realising what was in it I went on to study it until I'd worn out that copy.

I couldn't respect anyone who worshipped that god. Obviously it was fictional, but imagine wishing that the monster depicted were real? I looked at those church goers in a whole new light and I never again respected someone's beliefs just because they held them.

Forgot to add this too.

“The idea that science and the scientific method are beyond criticism is a delusion clung to by most laymen. Through the media of advertising, unfair advantage is often taken of the public's blind acceptance of anything associated with science. ... The principle of uncertainty is one of the cornerstones of modern science.”

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01619566009536946?journalCode=hpje20

Interesting paper. Makes some points that continue to be the issues decades later.

The issue is that just because Luddites talk about blind faith in science or scientism, doesn’t mean there is no such thing as blind faith in science or scientism. Just as a Christian probably hasn’t read the bible cover to cover, then scientists haven’t read all things science. Science is huge (made up of so many parts including biology, physics and chemistry) and it’s near impossible to know it all.

Perhaps the bottom line is that humans are fallible? We just don’t know everything and need some humility?

@vdbfamily

I may just be being daft but i see no difference between those two statements. They are both statements about what you think. You have thought through the evidence and decided that in your opinion there is no God. Not only that but the fact that you think that is important enough to come onto on line threads about faith and try and convince others of your point. Christians have a reason to do that as they are instructed to tell others what they believe and why, but if athiesm is just an absence of belief, why are some athiests so passionate about sharing their(lack of) belief at every opportunity? Genuinely interested in this btw, not just goady.

I think that is goady, actually. For a start, the OP invites this exact discussion. Secondly, why should people who do not believe in gods not state their lack of belief? Do you think we should not be allowed to dissent?

I’ve been trying to think of a way to explain the difference between belief and lack of belief, but I’m struggling, frankly. I don’t believe gods. Any of them. It’s a fairly passive position - there’s no faith or belief involved. What I do feel strongly about is religious people trying to force their faith positions on others to restrict their lives. Or trying to stop atheists sharing their views.

@WiseUpJanetWeiss

Is it a case of: I disbelieve therefore I am?

This is a really interesting article. Why Atheism Is a Belief System

You said: “What I do feel strongly about is religious people trying to force their faith positions on others to restrict their lives. Or trying to stop atheists sharing their views.”

I get it. However, you’re at risk of double standards because it could be argued the other side too with “atheists trying to force their opinions that god does not exist to others who do believe in god in order to restrict their lives”. Words to that effect.

That’s not to say you can’t or should not share your views on atheism. I just think it’s worth being mindful that from the viewpoint of someone sitting on the fence you’re a bad as each other. Like with everything I guess it’s how views are communicated. One thing that’s often lacking in these discussions is a middle ground and ability to empathise with the other viewpoint, partly because the original views are held so strongly by both parties.

Like, where is the person of faith or belief coming from? What makes them tick? They’re not exactly alone in the world, so it’s worth empathising. Likewise for the believer it’s worth seeing from the perspective of an atheist. That kind of mental agility is not easy for either position imo.

This is a really interesting article.

It’s nonsensical. There is physical evidence that Sweden exists. There is no physical evidence that gods exist. Atheism is not faith. It’s absence of faith. If there were no religions there would be no atheism.

However, you’re at risk of double standards because it could be argued the other side too with “atheists trying to force their opinions that god does not exist to others who do believe in god in order to restrict their lives”.

What do you mean by this? I am not trying to restrict the lives of those who are religious.what evidence can you present to support this assertion?

Like, where is the person of faith or belief coming from? What makes them tick? They’re not exactly alone in the world, so it’s worth empathising. Likewise for the believer it’s worth seeing from the perspective of an atheist. That kind of mental agility is not easy for either position imo.

That’s a bit patronising, isn’t it? What do you mean exactly? I understand what it is like to believe, because I used to believe, and I understand the comfort faith brings.

I don’t want to stop people from believing, and very rarely do I encounter anyone who wants to force me to believe. But there’s no doubt organised religion, alongside its good works, has caused great harm in the name of God, especially to women and girls. No amount of empathising can alter that.

So when we tell you politely that we do not believe and are happy that way, you guys need to shut up and go away and try someone else. That's all we want - for you to accept that we do not want your evangelism.

Especially those who stand on boxes in pedestrian precincts shouting incomprehensibly through loud hailers .

No God in my eyes.
My 5 year old has a muscle wasting disease that will rob him of all movement before taking his life at a young age.