AIBU to ask your opinions on God?

[Violetduck]

Do you beleive there is a God? I would like to, but how can he exist alongside modern science?

Aibu to believe in something more?

J.I. Packer summarizes: “God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil” (Knowing God, 151).

LOL!

In the story of Elisha and the bears. (2 Kings 22-25) a bunch of youths call Elisha a slaphead, so God sends a couple bears out of th woods to maul 42 of them to death.

Getting mauled to death for calling someone a slaphead is a "right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil"? GTF!

Sounds like petulant knobbism to me.

I also do not live in fear. The Bible says that 'perfect love drives out all fear'
I know that I am far far from perfect, but through relationship with Jesus, God looks on me as perfect. I do not have to do anything to achieve that, just accept that I am not perfect and need Jesus.
There are no things I HAVE to do to be saved. BUt...as a Jesus follower/fan, my natural inclination is to try and be like Him. This is not forced and I am not punished when I fail. I just say sorry and try again. I cannot understand where living in fear would come into a life of faith.

vdbfamily your summation is that of a believer I can respect. But sadly, religious institutions do still control people - from the RC Church all the way down to smaller scale Evangelical churches who preach hatred against those who live differently. I would also cast a parent disavowing a gay child as controlling. That control is indeed wrong, but so many believers still exert it. This is why I have no problem with individual believers, but I see organised religion as a powerful force for evil. Churches are very much not about freedom.

you don't have to believe in god to appreciate the beauty and splendour of architecture, and that includes churches. I adore (some) churches, they are peaceful, restful places and I love stained glass windows, some are stunning. I'm sure if there is a god, he won't mind a non believer enjoying his buildings.

I would second that, I'm atheist and I was in tears when Notre Dame went on fire.

I've only once been to Canterbury Cathedral and I was in awe of its beauty and the realisation that such a wonderful thing had been made by people using only their own (and animal) labour and hand tools working off wooden scaffolding.

Both places spoke to me more of the resilience, inventiveness, ingenuity, joy and sheer bloody brilliance of us as a species than any thoughts of 'god'.

We're amazing beasties. We should take credit.

I don't believe in god or afterlife or heaven or hell. I like the idea of reincarnation but I don't think it exists.

@vdbfamily

As a believer I do not think I lack freedom. I believe that I was 'designed' to be in relationship with God and so His Word/advice for living in the Bible, as modelled by Jesus, I believe is telling me how as humans we are supposed to live and be. That is not burdensome but releasing.......freedom in fact. For example, yes I waited until the age of 34 and marriage to have sex with anyone. Do I think that disadvantaged me? Absolutely not. We got married with no previous relationship baggage at all. Neither of us had had 'broken hearts' or had a first love we could not recover from. No comparisons with former partners or jealousy. Everything we have learnt about sex has been about each other and our needs, not other people. Another example is that I have never drunk to such excess that I have made myself ill. Can anyone say I am really missing out? God is not anti drinking, but drinking to excess and losing control which can lead to harm to yourself or others , that is just a bad idea. I do not feel I miss out. I do get that historically, religious institutions used to control people, but that is not really licensed by Jesus teaching and people began to work that out when they had translated Bibles and learnt to read. That control is wrong. Christians are basically told to Love God and Love others. It is that simple and the rest of it is just peripheral stuff. I don't care what people look like. what they do, how much they earn, what they believe, what colour they are, what they are wearing....I am just told to LOVE them and that is what I try to do. That is FREEDOM to me.

I'm genuinely happy for you that you have found a loving relationship you are happy in - the goal for almost everyone.

But what if you had been born gay? And the church had told you that to fall in love with someone, show that love physically, want to marry them etc was against God's will? Would you still think him a kind and loving deity then?

"@vdbfamily I don't care what people look like. what they do, how much they earn, what they believe, what colour they are, what they are wearing....I am just told to LOVE them and that is what I try to do.
That is FREEDOM to me."

I'm glad you're so happy with your faith. And it sounds like the way you have chosen to interpret the bible is the way I wish more Christians would.

I'm an atheist and also feel the same to other humans - and animals too. There's not enough love in the world.

[quote LastChristmas20]"@vdbfamily I don't care what people look like. what they do, how much they earn, what they believe, what colour they are, what they are wearing....I am just told to LOVE them and that is what I try to do.
That is FREEDOM to me."

I'm glad you're so happy with your faith. And it sounds like the way you have chosen to interpret the bible is the way I wish more Christians would.

I'm an atheist and also feel the same to other humans - and animals too. There's not enough love in the world. [/quote]
Totally agree with this - while I'm atheist my mum is Christian and she is wonderful. Loves everyone, very forgiving, unfailingly kind and fiercely loyal. Volunteers, does things that most people wouldn't even think of. I love that she takes great comfort in her beliefs and also that she respects the fact I take comfort in my atheism and that it works for me. She's taught me to be kind, loving and loyal. She's ace however most people who attend her church would disagree with me being bisexual and having dated both men and women, hold views of womanhood and rights to bodily autonomy that I can't support. She's the exception to the rule in my personal experience.

For example, yes I waited until the age of 34 and marriage to have sex with anyone. Do I think that disadvantaged me? Absolutely not. We got married with no previous relationship baggage at all. Neither of us had had 'broken hearts' or had a first love we could not recover from.

Why do you equate love and relationships only with sex, @vdbfamily? It is perfectly possibly to have had a first love and indeed a broken heart without having had sex with the object of that love. I find the thought of reaching the age of 34 without ever having had a loving relationship really very sad. And I would worry about hooking up with someone in that position.

You don't need a religion to decide whether or not you want to have sex outside of a committed relationship (my bedpost score is just the one, DH, approaching our 34th wedding anniversary ) or to refrain from drugs or drinking to excess. I find it odd that anyone would cite such things as examples of freedom in any way due to their religion rather than simply entirely free choice.

Personally I think not having sex until the age of 34 is allllll kinds of baggage in itself.

@ErrolTheDragon

You don't need a religion to decide whether or not you want to have sex outside of a committed relationship (my bedpost score is just the one, DH, approaching our 34th wedding anniversary ) or to refrain from drugs or drinking to excess. I find it odd that anyone would cite such things as examples of freedom in any way due to their religion rather than simply entirely free choice.

I agree with you - it's everyone's choice how they manage their lives, their loves and their relationships (and also their alcohol intake). You don't need religion to be able to do it in a way that is sensible, safe and fulfilling, and there are many different ways of achieving this. If you feel your faith enabled you to do this that's fine - but what makes you think you would have made different choices had you not had religion?

however most people who attend her church would disagree with me being bisexual and having dated both men and women, hold views of womanhood and rights to bodily autonomy that I can't support.

@vdbfamily would agree, for all she likes to go on about love and freedom.

the reason I mentioned sex and alcohol is because they were 2 of the things most often mentioned when I was in my early twenties and discussing Christianity with friends. They would talk about religion being restrictive because of rules around things generally considered to be fun.

I am not sure why being unmarried until 34 would mean I had not had loving relationships. I had and still have lots of very loving relationships outside of my marriage.

If science could disprove God, then no scientists would have a faith, and many do.

I believe in God, I don't believe Jesus was a real person, but I believe he represented a major shift from the war-god feeling of the Old Testament to something new - possibly as Gandy and Freke describe. I fully have experienced the Christ-consciousness - both as a Christian (when I believed that) and now.

The 'problem' of evil doesn't exist if you understand it as a lacking of god (love). I do not believe in a god who is like a person - god is more than that. God is a force like the sea. Life is easier if you are not battling the tide. God has their own purpose, and we are just small parts of that - but equally, we are sort of holograms of God - the whole of god is within us, and we are children of god.

And as for god giving a damn about who we love? Nah, can't see it. It's like me being worried about exactly how my cells divide.

@vdbfamily

the reason I mentioned sex and alcohol is because they were 2 of the things most often mentioned when I was in my early twenties and discussing Christianity with friends. They would talk about religion being restrictive because of rules around things generally considered to be fun.

I am not sure why being unmarried until 34 would mean I had not had loving relationships. I had and still have lots of very loving relationships outside of my marriage.

But if you want to do those things, they are restrictive.

@chomalungma

Old Testament God

I'll smite anyone who doesn't believe in me.
I'll destroy cities.
Old Testament God killed lots of people.

New Testament God

Here's my son.
Look. I've changed. Believe in me.

Look up Gnostic christianity they believed in exactly this -well actually they were dualists and believed in two Gods (as a general group we use this term to describe different religions). The French authorities fucked them over too (helped by the Spanish and Italians (well not exactly as those countries didn’t actually exist).

Never ceases to amaze me the confidence people have in there being no god, that people can’t envisage a concept of god or the divine outside the mainstream Abrahamic religions (if you look into the mystical side of these religions you’ll find a very different version of God).

Always up for the giggle of those who role out the oh so original God is basically Santa line.

Never ceases to amaze me the confidence people have in there being no god,

You've misunderstood atheism. We don't have confidence that there is no God, we believe that there is not and we live our lives accordingly. The one thing I am confident in is that I do not need a God to be a worthwhile human being. The rest is uncertainty, and that's fine.

Came across an interesting saying today.

“God answers prayers; the devil grants wishes”.

Thought that was an interesting distinction... any thoughts what it means? The difference between a prayer and a wish?

Never ceases to amaze me the confidence people have in there being no god, that people can’t envisage a concept of god or the divine outside the mainstream Abrahamic religions (if you look into the mystical side of these religions you’ll find a very different version of God).

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Never ceases to amaze me the confidence people have that there is one.

I'm very capable of envisaging the concept of plenty of different divine/spiritual things. But I don't think that any of those concepts are real.

Space. And evolution. And science. And love. And morality.

They're all amazing just as they are. They don't need an additional reason for their existence.

I like to believe there is a god, but I don't trust organised religion. Any god who loved us wouldn't judge for things that are beyond our control (being gay, born into the "wrong" religion etc.) but by our actions.

I am not sure why being unmarried until 34 would mean I had not had loving relationships. I had and still have lots of very loving relationships outside of my marriage

Because you said you had no previous relationship baggage.

If science could disprove God, then no scientists would have a faith, and many do.

As has been pointed out more than once, proving a negative is notoriously near-impossible. What is more relevant is the fact that religious people can't prove God, and equally can't disprove Zeus, Santa, Vishnu, or the Cookie Monster.

Given the many different branches of knowledge covered by science, I can't see that the fact that some scientists believe proves anything at all.

Or Russell's teapot, The Flying Spaghetti Monster etc

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

I believe In God. The earth and the harmony of all living things did not come about by accident.