AIBU to ask your opinions on God?

[Violetduck]

Do you beleive there is a God? I would like to, but how can he exist alongside modern science?

Aibu to believe in something more?

Yep the Christians really pulling out the winning arguments there

And again, why does it have to be about winning? I'd be happy if believers just stopped telling us unbelievers that we must be miserable without God, that the things we do to make this world a bit better are meaningless because we don't believe in God, that we are unable to have good morals if we don't believe in God. These are all things that have been said on this thread. These are all things that I have heard in every single sermon I've heard in the last 20 years - even at a wedding. Just stop it. It's as rude as atheists sneering about sky fairies.

@Barkspawn

Everyone knows that saying fact after something makes it undisputably true. Fact.

That's so true.

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

And again, why does it have to be about winning? I'd be happy if believers just stopped telling us unbelievers that we must be miserable without God, that the things we do to make this world a bit better are meaningless because we don't believe in God, that we are unable to have good morals if we don't believe in God. These are all things that have been said on this thread. These are all things that I have heard in every single sermon I've heard in the last 20 years - even at a wedding. Just stop it. It's as rude as atheists sneering about sky fairies.

But it's not just about winning. Religion is about power - which I suppose it an outward expression of winning - it's about money, and influence, and control. It's about keeping 'the faith' alive so those who have become accustomed to living off the gullible, hopeless, and insecure keep their wealth and comfortable lives. At it's worst (I'm only talking about religion here) it's con job run by out and out greedy flim- flam men ( (pace most US televangelists - as L. Ron Hubbard is famously, widely rumoured to have said, "The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion."), or sexual predators, or the just plain fucking insane.

@TheSandman

Power.

But also fear. (To gain power of course)

I remember when the so-called "Miracle on the Hudson" happened there were a lot of people claiming that it was god who guided the plane down and made sure everyone was rescued. But none of them could explain why god would have allowed birds to get into the engine, let alone at a point in the flight when they couldn't safely return to an airfield; nor why he chose to intervene in that flight and not in relation to the various other fatal plane crashes that happen. It was really quite offensive to the extremely skilled pilots and all the people who rushed to the rescue of the crew and passengers.

*my answer to the question who made Zeus is that the whole point about Zeus is that he is a god. If we understood everything about him he would not be a god. It is mind blowing and we do not need to understand it all as that is not possible."

@80sForever, I've slightly adapted the post you responded to. If I posted "Fact" after that, would it make it true? If not, could you explain why not?

TheSandman I agree with you up to a point, but I would differentiate between organised religion (which is indeed largely corrupt and a force for ill) and individual people of faith, who are as much individuals as anyone else. My point about respecting the non-faith of others is addressed to them. I want them to stop spouting their sanctimonious smug nonsense - if I can go through life without calling their God a sky fairy and telling them they're gullible, then surely they can stop calling me miserable and my deeds meaningless. Not all religious people are like that after all - so clearly it's possible.

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

TheSandman I agree with you up to a point, but I would differentiate between organised religion (which is indeed largely corrupt and a force for ill) and individual people of faith, who are as much individuals as anyone else. My point about respecting the non-faith of others is addressed to them. I want them to stop spouting their sanctimonious smug nonsense - if I can go through life without calling their God a sky fairy and telling them they're gullible, then surely they can stop calling me miserable and my deeds meaningless. Not all religious people are like that after all - so clearly it's possible.

Totally.

I have no trouble with people believing anything they want to no matter how silly - after all, some people think Norman Wisdom's movies are funny - but when silly ideas turn into dogma and start to dictate to others how to live... Nah, sorry, I need a bit more than, "It's the Will of [insert name of local sky fairy here] ".

@LastTrainEast

Xnon and winterberries77 Science at root is just "learning how things work" so you're saying that learning how things work" is somehow wrong?

How are you posting on here? By prayer or a device designed by people who "learned how things work"?

Prayer ought to work of course, but somehow never does. The bible promises that if you have faith you can move a mountain so adding some text should be easy enough.

At no point have I suggested that learning how things work is wrong. This is why I hate these discussions sometimes. Things get twisted.

Did you read my post about the discovery of Zero? Rather fascinating. I absolutely love learning. It just so happened that Zero and it’s use as a number came from an Indian spiritual concept of nothingness. That’s pretty amazing.

“The invention of zero was a hugely significant mathematical development, one that is fundamental to calculus, which made physics, engineering and much of modern technology possible.” www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180807-how-india-gave-us-the-zero

When you look into it, some scientific advancements throughout history have been driven by the belief in a creator, law giver and wanting to work those things out. As bizarre as it may seem now, there was a time that Theology was considered a ‘Queen of the Sciences’. Now that seems a bit silly. Maths is now Queen of the sciences.

I just think that belief in God (or equivalent) is personal and people should have that freedom. If it helps them get through the day then that can only be a good thing. It seems that faith is something people have without really understanding why. It’s a bit like, Why do you love your DH in particular and not just every other guy out there? It just is - and probably something that has developed over a long time that it’s hard to dissect with the benefit of hindsight. Like a connection you can’t get into the nitty gritty because it’s feelings. People with belief develop a relationship with their faith. It’s more like an art not a science; if it is to be made a science then its most likely a soft science.

Faith and belief is largely psychological and extremely complex imo. There are aspects we can’t and don’t know because of how subtle and nuanced it’s influence is. That would be the limitations of any scientific approach to this, imo.

I do agree that posters suggesting that nonbelievers don’t or can’t find meaning are being unfair. 84% of the world might have belief in god or something more. But I’m pretty sure that the other 16% are perfectly happy to not believe in anything more and they have that freedom to believe in atheism too.

Bottom line is perhaps just respecting each other’s beliefs or non-beliefs whatever they are.

Xnon I've known about the Indian 'discovery' of zero for decades so maybe didn't find it as enthralling at this point as you do. I was more interested to find out that the concept (even if not the symbol) had arisen multiple times completely independently. (You @'ed me upthread re this after I'd responded already).

Bottom line is perhaps just respecting each other’s beliefs or non-beliefs whatever they are.

I respect other people's right to hold their beliefs. I don't have to respect the belief itself. Some beliefs are clearly not worthy of respect - I'm sure there are political beliefs none of us on this thread would respect, for instance.

@ErrolTheDragon

Xnon I've known about the Indian 'discovery' of zero for decades so maybe didn't find it as enthralling at this point as you do. I was more interested to find out that the concept (even if not the symbol) had arisen multiple times completely independently. (You @'ed me upthread re this after I'd responded already).

Bottom line is perhaps just respecting each other’s beliefs or non-beliefs whatever they are.

I respect other people's right to hold their beliefs. I don't have to respect the belief itself. Some beliefs are clearly not worthy of respect - I'm sure there are political beliefs none of us on this thread would respect, for instance.

Sorry I’d not seen your other post. I’ll go find it after this.

Yeah. I agree with last paragraph too.

Absolutely. You can uphold the right to belief while thinking less of people who hold ridiculous beliefs that require major cognitive dissonance.

@notafanoftheman

Absolutely. You can uphold the right to belief while thinking less of people who hold ridiculous beliefs that require major cognitive dissonance.

Fair enough.

I just think that sometimes faith is a coping mechanism for some people and that explains the major cognitive dissonance at times. If their belief works for them to get through life then meh and shrug shoulders to anyone who thinks less of them for considering their coping mechanism to be ‘ridiculous’.

Arguably the single biggest spanner in the works for religious toleration was the invention of monotheism. It's fundamentally incompatible with polytheistic and non-theistic religions and philosophies.

I do agree that posters suggesting that nonbelievers don’t or can’t find meaning are being unfair. 84% of the world might have belief in god or something more. But I’m pretty sure that the other 16% are perfectly happy to not believe in anything more and they have that freedom to believe in atheism too.

I wonder sometimes about statistics like this. (And the way they are presented.) 84% might SAY they have 'belief in god or something more' but how many actually do?

There is a great deal of comfort to be had in continuity and certainty. Change is unsettling and scary. I have a friend who is a minister. She has something like 8 parishes to cover and is having real trouble with some of her communities. The church hierarchy wants to get rid of redundant buildings. Communities are up in arms about selling off what they see as their churches and church halls - but no one uses them. She has one church where she has a regular congregation of... one. One elderly lady turns up to the weekly service. That must be so depressing. The minister has repeatedly pointed out that the buildings are owned by the Church not the communities and if the community was so set on stopping the things being sold for housing - which this area desperately needs - then they should use the bloody things.

I'm sure (but cannot prove) that a significant portion of the 84% only put down that they have a belief because it's easier. And "or something more" is such a vague, catch-all term. It could mean anything.

And you don't 'believe' in atheism. It's not a religion.

@TheSandman

I do agree that posters suggesting that nonbelievers don’t or can’t find meaning are being unfair. 84% of the world might have belief in god or something more. But I’m pretty sure that the other 16% are perfectly happy to not believe in anything more and they have that freedom to believe in atheism too.

I wonder sometimes about statistics like this. (And the way they are presented.) 84% might SAY they have 'belief in god or something more' but how many actually do?

There is a great deal of comfort to be had in continuity and certainty. Change is unsettling and scary. I have a friend who is a minister. She has something like 8 parishes to cover and is having real trouble with some of her communities. The church hierarchy wants to get rid of redundant buildings. Communities are up in arms about selling off what they see as their churches and church halls - but no one uses them. She has one church where she has a regular congregation of... one. One elderly lady turns up to the weekly service. That must be so depressing. The minister has repeatedly pointed out that the buildings are owned by the Church not the communities and if the community was so set on stopping the things being sold for housing - which this area desperately needs - then they should use the bloody things.

I'm sure (but cannot prove) that a significant portion of the 84% only put down that they have a belief because it's easier. And "or something more" is such a vague, catch-all term. It could mean anything.

And you don't 'believe' in atheism. It's not a religion.

I guess it’s like feeling they are part of some sort of club or team?

Statistics show that religiosity in societies is inversely correlated with the quality of their legal and social systems.

I guess it’s like feeling they are part of some sort of club or team?

Tribalism?

@ErrolTheDragon

I guess it’s like feeling they are part of some sort of club or team?

Tribalism?

Where I think there is a difference between faith and religion. Religion is more like tribalism and doesn’t necessarily mean the individual has a personal faith of their own.

“Religion is for people who're afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for those who've already been there.”

Tribalism, a sense of security and belonging, safety in numbers.

I do wonder about that 84% figure and what the definition used was - I can see a lot of that being about a general vague 'something more than this' without being about a belief in a God of the kind that the major religions subscribe to. If you narrow it down to 'practising believer who attends church of some kind' I imagine those numbers would look very different.

Having said that, being an atheist isn't an easy position to take. Believing there's an answer and it's God (even if it's not possible to understand that answer) is one thing; accepting that there may not be an answer at all and still feeling secure and happy is quite another. But we all arrive at our spiritual destinations in our own way.

Having said that, being an atheist isn't an easy position to take. Believing there's an answer and it's God (even if it's not possible to understand that answer) is one thing; accepting that there may not be an answer at all and still feeling secure and happy is quite another. But we all arrive at our spiritual destinations in our own way.

What's the question to which god is supposed to be 'the answer' ?

What's the question to which god is supposed to be 'the answer' ?

It's not 'a' question, it's all of them.

• Why does the universe exist?
• Why didn't I die in that car crash?
• Why do shitty things keep happening to me?

It's easier to have an answer than to accept that you don't know, that it's chance, that It Just Is.

Sorry I may be a little lost here.

Is the conversation saying that Atheism is akin to tribalism? (If not then no need to read further! My brain is muddled today)

Because honestly I take no comfort in that I'm an atheist and so are other people. But it also grants me no discomfort. It's just what it is.

It's not something I choose to be to be in a club/tribe etc.

I have no religious beliefs. I'm void of any membership in that respect and neither need or want it.

I'm not proud of it. I'm not ashamed of it. Religion/a higher being factors into my life or decisions in no way. And nor do I want it to.

I'm perfectly content and at peace with a total lack of religion.

I believe in God but not God in the bible. I believe that something came first, before everything (not an old white dude with a beard in a toga).