AIBU to ask your opinions on God?

[Violetduck]

Do you beleive there is a God? I would like to, but how can he exist alongside modern science?

Aibu to believe in something more?

How different these two debaters are, one a theist the other an atheist. One humble and eloquent, the other rude and stumbling.

John Lennox is awesome.

I was, as was most of my friends when I was young, brought up in a half arsed sort of Catholicism. My mum had her own, mixed up sort of faith but didn't try to push it on me and my brother.
Catholic school but, by the age of about 6 or 7, I think most people had figured there wasn't anything to it.

I have prayed since then, though. When I was 12 my friend developed leukemia and I prayed that, if there was a God, please could they save him. Please, please, please could they save him. I would commit to religion, I'd stop blaspheming, I'd become a nun if necessary.
He died about six months later. He was 13 years old. He was a brilliant, clever, funny, kind person who died a horrible, horrible death.

Of the religious leaders who visited his parents, I have by far the most respect for the Catholic priest who, when the mother said quite firmly that she couldn't believe a loving God could do something like that, he just said okay.
The Calvinist, the Baptist, the Evangelist ministers all had a variant of "God works in mysterious ways... But have you considered that if you hadn't led a life of sin (unmarried, non church going etc) then perhaps God would not have seen fit to punish you."

God wasn't done yet. When, a few years later, they tried to conceive, there was miscarriage after miscarriage (as there apparently had been before they conceived my friend) ending in a baby who only lived a few days.
My friend's mother killed herself. She was 43. Apparently, that's a sin as well.

I do not believe in a God. I certainly don't believe in a God worth worshipping. However, if any of the theists on this thread, especially those who've started believing after a car crash or cancer diagnosis or something, would like to explain to me why your all powerful, all loving God let a thirteen year old die, let his mother suffer loss after loss, create a baby with only four days of life... Well, I'd be all ears.

Winterberries77 not going to watch the video, I have a life - but what are you trying to say? I'm assuming the atheist guy is rude, the believer guy nice - so what? Some believers are dicks. Some atheists are dicks. Because some people are dicks. You're making a non-point.

I'm atheist, so don't believe. But if people find it helps or gives them comfort then I'm fine with it - as long as they don't want me to involved in their god-stuff too!

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

Winterberries77 not going to watch the video, I have a life - but what are you trying to say? I'm assuming the atheist guy is rude, the believer guy nice - so what? Some believers are dicks. Some atheists are dicks. Because some people are dicks. You're making a non-point.

No ones saying you have to watch, after all you “have a life” but maybe it’s because you’re afraid to see what you don’t want to see. . Why bother even getting involved on the thread then. But actually I’m not making a non point at all. The Professor of mathematics at Oxford University who is also a doctor of philosophy neatly destroys an atheist who seems to typify a lot of the atheists who I’ve heard go up against Lennox....As in rude, bombastic and lacking in humility. So this isn’t anything like “some people are dicks”.....it’s the same in nearly every debate I’ve ever watched with Lennox. They aren’t all dicks, some are a lot more intelligent and respectful, but imo Lennox is an instrument of God. They can’t beat him.

To quote him
“Either human intelligence ultimately owes its origin to mindless matter, or there is a Creator. It is strange that some people claim it is their intelligence that leads them to prefer the first to the second.”

That video

The Professor of mathematics at Oxford University who is also a doctor of philosophy neatly destroys an atheist who seems to typify a lot of the atheists who I’ve heard go up against Lennox....

Alright then Ben Shapiro.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@winterberries77

But they actually do embarrass spthemselves when they proclaim that something can come from nothing, but not explain how. Now THAT is blind faith.

If something can't come from nothing, where did god come from and how did it happen?[/quote]
Not being goady, just I've asked this a few times and never seem to get anywhere - any thoughts on it?

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I think you'll be waiting quite a while on that one. It tends to be tactically ignored, along with questions such as "Why does a loving God allow natural disasters?" Or bone cancer? Or dementia?

So you are making two points:

1. Some atheists are rude. Especially the ones who make it into television debates. Well, colour me surprised.
2. You really like this Lennox man because he affirms your beliefs. Well, colour me surprised.

Look, I get he's well educated and he argues well - but at the end of it all, what he says is still about his choice to believe one thing over another. It's about belief. For each one of him, there's at least one atheist scientist at least as well educated and at least as erudite who posits the opposite. It proves absolutely nothing.

The fact that you mention 'nobody can beat him' seems to imply you see this as some kind of contest, in which there has to be a winner. Why can't it be a discussion between two opposing views? Why does your guy have to 'win'? I don't feel that need. I just want people to accept my beliefs (or lack of beliefs) are as valid as theirs. I've been mocked by people of faith far too often to believe they are all humble, saintly and well spoken.

@ArrowsOfMistletoe

Winterberries77 not going to watch the video, I have a life - but what are you trying to say? I'm assuming the atheist guy is rude, the believer guy nice - so what? Some believers are dicks. Some atheists are dicks. Because some people are dicks. You're making a non-point.

True. We could post videos of believers blowing themselves and others to pieces with suicide vests next to videos of atheists putting themselves in peril trying to help others. Wouldn't prove a damn thing about anything.

Not being goady, just I've asked this a few times and never seem to get anywhere - any thoughts on it?

Yeah the room does tend to go a bit quite when that gets asked and somehow the subject gets changed to 'why humans make art if there is no god to inspire them' or some such.

[quote TeenyTinyDustinHoffman]@youvegottenminuteslynn

I think you'll be waiting quite a while on that one. It tends to be tactically ignored, along with questions such as "Why does a loving God allow natural disasters?" Or bone cancer? Or dementia?[/quote]
It's frustrating isn't it? It's a genuinely interesting philosophical question that one and I've yet to hear an answer from a believer.

Many have said to me, well what made the Big Bang? As if it's a gotcha moment. But if god made the Big Bang, who made god?

Then it always goes quiet.

Xnon and winterberries77 Science at root is just "learning how things work" so you're saying that learning how things work" is somehow wrong?

How are you posting on here? By prayer or a device designed by people who "learned how things work"?

Prayer ought to work of course, but somehow never does. The bible promises that if you have faith you can move a mountain so adding some text should be easy enough.

I remember particularly when my car was spinning out of control onto oncoming traffic and i was about to crash and at that moment i said to myself this is it and i knew if i died i would have gone straight to hell and i called out to Jesus to save me and almost instantly the car went into a ditch and stopped.

This is so mad. Why would Jesus decide to try to save you rather than all the other people who die in awful accidents, just because you called out - particularly if, seconds earlier, you apparently merited going to hell? If, say, you'd had a baby in the car who couldn't call out, should we assume that Jesus would have been happy to let him be thrown out of the vehicle and be killed?

my answer to the question who made God is that the whole point about Good is that he is GOD. If we understoo everything about him he would not be God. He had always been described as everlasting, without beginning and end. he exists outside of time and space and yet also lives within us through His Spirit. it is mind blowing and we do not need to understand it all as that is not possible. However, to believe that the universe appeared from nowhere is as much a leap of faith as believing in an eternal God without beginning of end surely?

You've either got a universe that popped up out of nowhere or a Creator who popped up out of nowhere. Both things are equally impossible to underdtand.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. We have advanced a very long way in our understanding of the universe and its development, to the extent that it really isn't inconceivable that science will come up with an explanation of the original origin of the universe. However, I can't honestly see anyone ever coming up with an explanation of where a supposedly omnipotent creator popped up from.

Nope, don’t believe in God.

@vdbfamily

my answer to the question who made God is that the whole point about Good is that he is GOD. If we understoo everything about him he would not be God. He had always been described as everlasting, without beginning and end. he exists outside of time and space and yet also lives within us through His Spirit. it is mind blowing and we do not need to understand it all as that is not possible. However, to believe that the universe appeared from nowhere is as much a leap of faith as believing in an eternal God without beginning of end surely?

Thank you for answering.

On paper, believing any unproven reason for the Big Bang / beginning of time is equally valid and equally problematic I suppose.

However history shows us that scientific discoveries are uncovering new data, patterns and theories all the time. Hence I believe it's less of a leap of faith to believe there is an explanation other than god (so one of hundreds / thousands of explanations) than it is to say it's one particular explanation - god.

I do appreciate you answering, it's good for someone to actually do so!

But it's something to think about if you do ever use the 'well something must have made the Big Bang happen' as there's no more obligation for an atheist to explain that then there is for a believer to explain how god was created.

Again, I believe it's more likely to be one of the hundreds / thousands / millions of possibilities rather than just one (god) - to me that isn't as big a leap of faith and is more grounded in reality.

Many believe in Einstiens theory of relativity yet these are unproven theories, they may fit the world as we know it but until proven are just theories. Believing in them can be a sign of faith.

This is a misunderstanding of what the term "theory" means in scientific terms that comes up so frequently in these discussions. Science refers to things like the theory of gravity or the theory of Relativity or genetics essentially on the basis that they constitute explanations that fit the known facts and which work against rigorous testing. This does not mean that anyone thinks that proven theories are incorrect or unreliable; no-one, for instance, seriously contests the existence of gravity. Likewise, there is very strong evidence for evolution and no-one has come up with anything that discredits it - certainly it's a much more sensible explanation for the development of all living species than that a mystic being created everything within seven days and nothing has changed since.

@Cygne

I remember particularly when my car was spinning out of control onto oncoming traffic and i was about to crash and at that moment i said to myself this is it and i knew if i died i would have gone straight to hell and i called out to Jesus to save me and almost instantly the car went into a ditch and stopped.

This is so mad. Why would Jesus decide to try to save you rather than all the other people who die in awful accidents, just because you called out - particularly if, seconds earlier, you apparently merited going to hell? If, say, you'd had a baby in the car who couldn't call out, should we assume that Jesus would have been happy to let him be thrown out of the vehicle and be killed?

I'm sure someone posted earlier alluding to a "miracle" but not expanding. I wonder if that was the kind of thing they mean? I assume they don't expand on that as a little scrutiny will suggest it was perfectly explainable?

@vdbfamily

my answer to the question who made God is that the whole point about Good is that he is GOD. If we understoo everything about him he would not be God. He had always been described as everlasting, without beginning and end. he exists outside of time and space and yet also lives within us through His Spirit. it is mind blowing and we do not need to understand it all as that is not possible. However, to believe that the universe appeared from nowhere is as much a leap of faith as believing in an eternal God without beginning of end surely?

Fact

But @80sForever you surely understand that saying 'fact' after posts about unproven beliefs and hypotheses doesn't make it so?

Even if you believe god is the cause of the beginning of time, logic dictates that it's more likely to be one of the other thousands of potential explanations than it is your single, only explanation (god)?

As I said before I was really troubled that you couldn't fathom how atheists experience joy, love, strength etc without believing in god. And also as I said before, in my near fatal crash (I'm so sorry for anyone of any faith who has been through the same) my thoughts were of my lovely mum and how sad she would be if I died, and panic about the incoming pain. I didn't die. And ardent non believer. Which means it's unlikely there is a god who saves people from crashes as a direct result of asking him to. Which neutralise what other people consider to be a miracle, because I survived even if ardent believers did too. I survived because I was lucky to be found, ambulances be called, science to have discovered ways to keep me alive, people I love (atheists) who took care of me while I was recovering... crediting that to god is a disservice to the people involved and implies that people who don't survive have somehow not been chosen by god, which is cruel.

Typos sorry

I didn't die. An ardent non believer. Which means it's unlikely there is a god who saves people from crashes as a direct result of asking him to. Which neutralises what other people consider to be a miracle, because I survived even if ardent believers did too

Everyone knows that saying fact after something makes it undisputably true. Fact.