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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can't stand people referring to others as a 'Karen'

561 replies

shesellsseashells99 · 30/11/2020 21:41

I'm fed up with seeing it, I really have. it's gone way too far now. I have a friend who is ashamed of her name and won't post on any public forum because of the stick she gets. Constantly seeing stupid memes.

You may think I'm being too serious but I think it's so derogatory to people who have that name.

OP posts:
Figgygal · 01/12/2020 10:10

It is obnoxious and ignorant and used by people who can’t form a cohesive argument so just throw a crap insult at any opinion they don’t like

Ponoka7 · 01/12/2020 10:12

@emilyfrost, how is it an accurate description? You've taken on the connotations and asigned it as fact.

If every person who made a sexist remark was called Muhammad or abdullah, do you think it would be acceptable?

We shoot down even a hint of racism, but allow ageism and sexism to stand.

lioncitygirl · 01/12/2020 10:15

I don’t even know what a ‘Karen’ means - isn’t it just a name. I’ve seen people on her say ‘Wendy’ a lot - what does that mean?! Aren’t these all just names?!

VladmirsPoutine · 01/12/2020 10:19

@lioncitygirl Name to describe a white woman who asserts undue authority usually over ethnic minority minimum wage workers over some imagined slight.

It was coined to denote a certain kind of white woman but was co-opted by men as a sexist slur to basically shame any woman. So thus on a forum like Mumsnet the majority of women will of course find the term offensive. I think it's perfectly apt. It's as offensive as a rainbow after a rainy day. Smile

Littlescottiedog · 01/12/2020 10:24

Someone in a FB group a little while ago posted a comment that said something like

"Why do I have to be the one to be Karen about it? (No offence to anyone called Karen. It's not my fault your name become a meme.)"

I replied saying perhaps she shouldn't use the name in that way then. She never responded.

Alethiometrical · 01/12/2020 10:24

YANBU.

It's sexist & ageist.

kness · 01/12/2020 10:25

@watthaduck

Thankfully I don't hear it used much in real life but I do see a lot of memes about it. I feel really bad for your friend, that's such a shame and no one should feel like that. To be honest, I'd never really given it much thought or considered how it may affect women with the name, so I'm glad this thread was created and gives me an opportunity to be more aware.
@watthaduck In the nicest possible way to you, this is one of the main things that astounds me about it. Lots of people online have made a similar comment to you, and I'm amazed every time. I'm astounded by the number of people who never stopped to think that women actually called Karen would be harassed because of this. What did people really think would happen? I've got to know lots of Karens online recently and the levels of harassment and bullying are off the scale. Some of the things we've seen, you would be really shocked by. It isn't just online, it includes women being ridiculed at work and yes, even being turned down for jobs.

And what's even sadder too is that although people originally claimed it wasn't personal and was only aimed at certain behaviours, it's clearly no longer the case as those of us with this name are being targeted for our names alone and nothing else. Lots of us have stopped commenting online altogether, and I know of endless numbers of women who've changed their name online in order to be able to participate in any kind of discussion, no matter how mundane. It's appalling what it's doing to women but especially us.

Whatever it was used for in the past, it has clearly morphed into something else entirely, and it's very ugly. I just wish women could see how they're complicit in misogyny by taking part in this.

SylvieSangFroid · 01/12/2020 10:25

I think the minute it was co-opted by men to shame any women, as you say Vladimir, it stopped being apt in any way. I have seen white racist men online calling BAME women Karens. So, the original meaning has lost any significance.

watthaduck · 01/12/2020 10:33

@kness I never did use the term but I certainly will be less passive about it now when I see it being used. How horrible for people to have to go through.

kness · 01/12/2020 10:35

@VladmirsPoutine How did I know you were going to turn up in this thread Hmm. It's lost its original meaning, you know this full well and it's absolutely disingenuous to keep claiming otherwise.

And you made that rainbows comment deliberately to antagonise, for the sheer enjoyment of it, which means nobody can take you seriously and you're no better than Katie Hopkins.

kness · 01/12/2020 10:35

@watthaduck Thank you.

HmmSureJan · 01/12/2020 10:35

[quote kness]@VladmirsPoutine How did I know you were going to turn up in this thread Hmm. It's lost its original meaning, you know this full well and it's absolutely disingenuous to keep claiming otherwise.

And you made that rainbows comment deliberately to antagonise, for the sheer enjoyment of it, which means nobody can take you seriously and you're no better than Katie Hopkins.[/quote]
This.

Leolion09 · 01/12/2020 10:38

I'm sick of it quite frankly, like all the name calling on social media.
I asked a perfectly polite and legitimate question on a page once and got called Karen several times because I had asked a question about something Hmm how very dare I

Welcometonowhere · 01/12/2020 10:44

I don’t normally disagree with vlad but going to make an exception.

Names tell you a lot about a person. Not their personality or character but let’s say someone is called Mohammed: I know that’s a male from a Muslim background. Obviously other names aren’t quite as telling as that but you can usually tell someone’s sex, sometimes country of birth, sometimes religious background, and often approximate age. Names like Jean, Linda, and so on peaked in popularity in the 1950s - can’t imagine a baby Jean today.

And there is a class element. This differs between the United Kingdom and America: in America the middle classes favour names we would associate with a more working class background. America tend to look forwards, while a lot of our wealth and glory is in our past so traditional names tend to dominate the middle classes here.

Karen peaked in popularity in the 60s and 70s, making most Karens in the maybe 45-55 bracket. So that’s point one. Middle aged women are to be mocked.

Obviously it’s a woman’s name. I know someone’s mentioned there being an equivalent for men but I’ve not seen it in anything like the same way I’ve seen Karen ripped into. So middle aged women are to be mocked. Not good.

And then there is a class element. I don’t mean that all Karens are working class but there does tend to be an element of this amongst the more popular names for girls especially. Lindsey, Leanne, Joanne, claire, all peaked in popularity in the 80s. Tbh I really liked Oliver when having ds but decided against it on this basis, that it would become a bit dated.

So working class women of a certain age are fit to be ripped into. It’s not good. It’s a way of silencing women generally because say you point out something contentious like being born male means you are a man - you’re a Karen, and hoots of laughter and derision are OK.

I loathe it.

Sameolesame · 01/12/2020 10:45

GrinGrin so stressful being called Karen. Calls for stoicism. The poor oppressed white female.

The argument is very clear and there’s no need to explain any further. The fury on here proves the point. You all know why the term has arisen and it is not misogynistic. For far too long certain members of the world have used their race, class, and gender to oppress others. Then suddenly become fragile at the mere use of “Karen”.

Calm down. There are bigger problems for ALL women out there.

unmarkedbythat · 01/12/2020 10:46

It's not top of my list of things to be bothered about, but I do understand others are really upset by it. Half the time it's just part of a stream of mindless drivel though, I can't get too upset by being called a Karen by someone who also calls me a boomer (I'm 39) as it just shows they're ignorant and lazy.

AryaStarkWolf · 01/12/2020 10:48

@Sn0tnose

It’s everyday sexism. There’s no standard male equivalent where everyone would know what you meant if you said ‘he’s being a [insert male name here]. It’s used to shout down women and force them to be quiet.

If an arsehole is being an arsehole, then it is because they are an arsehole. Not because they’re a woman, or they’ve got a certain haircut or because they want to see your manager.

Yeah exactly, in fact when used against men (on the rare occasions) they're called "Karens" as well, so doubly offensive because not only are you calling them rude/entitled (and whatever else Karen means) you're also demeaning them by calling them a..............women!! how degrading for them
AryaStarkWolf · 01/12/2020 10:51

@Sameolesame

GrinGrin so stressful being called Karen. Calls for stoicism. The poor oppressed white female.

The argument is very clear and there’s no need to explain any further. The fury on here proves the point. You all know why the term has arisen and it is not misogynistic. For far too long certain members of the world have used their race, class, and gender to oppress others. Then suddenly become fragile at the mere use of “Karen”.

Calm down. There are bigger problems for ALL women out there.

No I disagree with you there. Middle aged women have always been viewed as worthless annoyances, no longer sexually attractive so what value do they have anymore? This isn't a new thing or view, it's just a new name. PS I'm not furious about it, just disappointed at the fact that in all these years we've not moved forward at all, same old attitudes, different name
Grenlei · 01/12/2020 10:52

It's just lazy pathetic name-calling by idiots who are too thick to construct an argument. Like that vacuous prat Stacey Solomon who calls anyone who disagrees with her or calls her out on her bs a Susan. Playground mentality.

kness · 01/12/2020 10:57

The argument is very clear and there’s no need to explain any further.

@Sameolesame You're right, there's no need for you to carry on. Bye then. We won't miss you.

ClaudiaWinklepants · 01/12/2020 11:03

@Sameolesame I get what you are saying but surely we should change this whole mentality of generalising a whole groups of people, whether it is based on their name, colour of skin or religious beliefs.

Until everyone can refrain from "playing to the stereotype" for laughs, it will just move from one group to the next. Why does there need to be a scapegoat group in any factor of life?
As a pp has said, if someone is rude, actually call it being rude, likewise for racist, greedy, mean, not a name that flattens your argument instantly.
Persecuting whole groups of people because of something they are unable to determine - that's shitty and, quite frankly, what we should all be working together to stamp out

SkedaddIe · 01/12/2020 11:06

I'm on the fence about this one.

It's more of an American issue and stems from their 'culture war' and 'identity politics'. As I understand it, the origin is that 'Karen' is the archetypal white woman trump voter. Willing to ignore sexism and classism as long as it supports her racism.

Satire is a very powerful tool, and I think that particular group of people did need a wake up call. 'Entitled wanker' doesn't quite hit the mark.

SaucyHorse · 01/12/2020 11:11

I like how about 6 different 'male alternatives' have been suggested. Very neatly proving that no, there isn't a male alternative.

The origins may have been defensible on some level (though I don't think it's ever actually OK to use a name as an insult because there are actual people with that name) but it's obviously just a word for uppity woman by this stage. And we all know how much our society despises uppity women.

Leafylife · 01/12/2020 11:11

I used to work with a man around my age (50s now, but this was 20 yrs ago) who used "Doris" in a similarly belittling way, to dismiss and shut down the views of women who were older than him. I think the difference now is the wider use of the internet, so some random mysogynist's use of "Karen" quickly went viral. But the other difference is that 20 years ago I thought this kind of sexist nonsense was on the way out, now I feel absolute rage and despair that my daughter is a young woman in an age where women are still shut down and made the butt of jokes for having opinions.

I've had this conversation IRL and people have said "but x was being a Karen" i.e. they thought she was being unreasonable, entitled, precious, etc. I don't think that matters. Just use descriptive words to say why you disagree or dislike someone's views or behaviour. It's not that you're not allowed to disagree, just have an adult conversation without using mocking stereotypes.

lazyarse123 · 01/12/2020 11:11

@emilyfrost

YABU and ridiculous. Don’t like it? Tough shit; while it’s an accurate way to describe a behaviour it’s going to continue to be used.
How the fuck is it an accurate way to describe a behaviour? Just because one person named Karen acted like a twat doesn't mean they all do. It's just rude and bullying.