Can't stand people referring to others as a 'Karen'

[shesellsseashells99]

I'm fed up with seeing it, I really have. it's gone way too far now. I have a friend who is ashamed of her name and won't post on any public forum because of the stick she gets. Constantly seeing stupid memes.

You may think I'm being too serious but I think it's so derogatory to people who have that name.

@yetanothernamitynamechange

I agree, and would never use the term itself. But you seem to be implying that it is a racist term. What I think it actually is, first and foremost, is a mysogynistic term (and maybe secondmost ageist). Its also very hard to reclaim because of its associations - e.g. it is easier to call yourself a "difficult woman" or a "nasty woman" or even a "bitch" and mean it in a positive way. It is harder to call yourself a "Karen" in the same way. I think thats a large part of why I hate it.

It's the power of satire, and it's amazing.

The male equivalent of Karen is 'Dick'

Arrogant, chauvinistic, superior without reason, low intelligence and male/masculine.

I don't see Richards reclaiming Dick anytime soon. And the term is probably sexist if you believe in reverse sexism (I don't), and arguably classist as it conjures up the image of an average middle classed men as opposed to a toff or chav.

Karen may go the same way, and I don't think I'll be against it. (Even though it is sexist and ageist). The positives outweigh the negatives imo.

If 'Karen' was a thing in the 1950s maybe Emmett Till could be alive today. (He would be 79)

@MyGazeboisLeaking I think we probably largely agree. As I said before, the term "Karen" as an insult has very mysogynistic roots and I was uncomfortable when it got coopted as an anti-racist term for all the reasons you described. I think it was an asolute gift to people who want to shut women down because it gave them an excuse, and since the shift happened online (where anyone can be anyone) I suspect that this was partly deliberate/manipulted. However, directly criticising its use on videos of racist incidents risks playing into those peoples hands in my opinion.

^chillibeansauce
There is no male equivalent.
There is, it’s Chad. And has been used years.^

Not only have I never heard Chad used in this way on social media or otherwise, I have never heard it at all. Neither have I met anyone actually called Chad! However, as Karen was the most popular girls name of the 1960s, I have met dozens. In fact there must be millions in the English speaking world (and a few more in Scandinavia). Given its popularity, the male equivalent really ought to be Stephen/Steven. Perhaps we could should start a trend!

@SkedaddIe No it wouldnt. Because the woman who complained about him and the men who murdered him would not have cared about being labelled as such. Labelling violent racists as racists, or any other term, wont stop them being violent racists. Putting violent racists in prison (even if they have a uniform and a badge) might. Plus the woman who complained about Emmet Till was very pretty (a former beauty queen) and relatively young - she would not have been thought of as a Karen and would not have feared the label. The men who murdered him were men, and everyone knows the problem is women so they wouldnt have minded either.
The very idea that a stupid meme could have saved Emmet is ridiculous and insulting to the people that forced actual progress (by campaigning, and sometimes sacrificing their lives) not by name calling.

No.

Carolyn Bryant and Amy Cooper are the same person.

65 years didn't stop black people getting murdered, because marching, pleading, and politics often fall on deaf ears and drowned in 'debate'.

But satire (and shame) are very sharp psychological tools. I genuinely believe the 'Karen' satire has saved someone's life, probably Christian Cooper.

Also Dick is a shortened name, so it is quite easy to just call youself richy, or richard, or rich etc. Karen is someones full name that appears on their birth certificate. Also Dick as an insult came about because it is also a nickname for penis. Most Richards dont call themselves Dick because its associated with that (and silly jokes) rather than the negative stereotypes you outline. The same way most Francesca's dont say "call me Fanny" or Titania's/Felicities don't say "call me Titty"

@SkedaddIe

No.

Carolyn Bryant and Amy Cooper are the same person.

65 years didn't stop black people getting murdered, because marching, pleading, and politics often fall on deaf ears and drowned in 'debate'.

But satire (and shame) are very sharp psychological tools. I genuinely believe the 'Karen' satire has saved someone's life, probably Christian Cooper.

Well, I hope you are right and it does change the world for the better. But I am highly skeptical.

And I've done my fair share of marching, educating, donating, mentoring and counselling.

And I will continue to do so.

But then, I guess calling men "Dicks" did stop men behaving like dicks. If you look at the relationship board these days its just tumbleweed.

@yetanothernamitynamechange I'm skeptical too, I said in an earlier post that I'm on the fence. Politics and media is so polar and fast moving atm that it's hard to predict how things will play out.

I don’t think the term Karen is going anywhere just like Dick hasn’t. I wonder if Karen is seemingly now more offensive than to be called racist.

I don't see Richards reclaiming Dick anytime soon. And the term is probably sexist if you believe in reverse sexism (I don't), and arguably classist as it conjures up the image of an average middle classed men as opposed to a toff or chav.

Nope, the average Richard who was known as Dick would probably be 100 years old. Younger Richards use different short forms. Karen is a full name - what are Karens supposed to do?

@SkedaddIe Indeed. Sorry if I came across as a bit strong. I seem to spend a lot of time disagreeing with people who I broadly agree with if that makes sense (like you and probably @MyGazeboisLeaking) and that troubles me. I agree shame can be effective is used cleverly, but I think that it can be a double edged sword. I also think that while identiy politics makes a lot of sense in some ways, it has been used by the right wing a lot longer than by the left and they are better at playing that game. The Karen meme feeds into that.

@yetanothernamitynamechange

But then, I guess calling men "Dicks" did stop men behaving like dicks. If you look at the relationship board these days its just tumbleweed.

I agree. But hopefully the dynamic will be different. (White) men are arguably top of the social privilege totem pole and we get to dismiss or trivialise our abhorrent behaviour. I don't think 'Karens' will get that luxury.

I'm on the fence.

I do hope the positive outcome will be that 'women for Trump' types will see that they'll never get a 'seat at the table' especially if it's at the expense of other oppressed groups.

The negative outcome is that it just gets used for more divide and conquer identity politics.

I haven't heard of anyone called 'Dick' since the Famous Five, so there aren't any men called Dick who are going to be offended by its being used as an insult now. Whereas, as has been said, 'Karen' is still a full name for a lot or women.

Do you really not understand that they might not be offended to be hearing their name being used in this way? No one has really taken this aspect on board when defending the use of the 'Karen' meme.

[quote yetanothernamitynamechange]@SkedaddIe No it wouldnt. Because the woman who complained about him and the men who murdered him would not have cared about being labelled as such. Labelling violent racists as racists, or any other term, wont stop them being violent racists. Putting violent racists in prison (even if they have a uniform and a badge) might. Plus the woman who complained about Emmet Till was very pretty (a former beauty queen) and relatively young - she would not have been thought of as a Karen and would not have feared the label. The men who murdered him were men, and everyone knows the problem is women so they wouldnt have minded either.
The very idea that a stupid meme could have saved Emmet is ridiculous and insulting to the people that forced actual progress (by campaigning, and sometimes sacrificing their lives) not by name calling.[/quote]
Spot on.

Sorry but Chad and Dick are laughable red herrings. I've never met anyone with either of those names in my entire life. Nor is the Internet rife with memes about either of them.

Stop trying to make male equivalents of Karen be a thing. There isn't a male equivalent.

[quote yetanothernamitynamechange]@MyGazeboisLeaking I absolutely would call it what it is! I would say she is a racist woman. I just dont think trying to argue about the wording used if someone posts a video like that is likely to help - it can actually backfire since it muddles the two issues. Discussions about racism are sidetracked into discussions about the word "Karen". Discussions about mysogyny, and the fact that Karen is a sexist term, are easily sidetracked into a discussion about white privilege with the implication the person complaining is a racist or doesnt care about racism. Basically pick your battles.[/quote]
@yetanothernamitynamechange If it's clearly known in advance that mentioning Karen will result in the discussion getting sidetracked, then maybe don't use it? It's franky ridiculous to deliberately use the most antagonistic method, knowing in advance what the response will be, and then complain that people are taking the discussion off on a tangent.

@kness I agree. Thats one of the (many, many) reasons I wouldnt use it personally.

I agree with PP, it is a white on white thing, nothing to do with blacks. If the whites want to laugh at themselves who am i to get involved? Nothing to do with me and i will continue to laugh at the so true Karen meme

YANBU

The stereotyping of a white, middle class middle aged, "racist " woman is unfair and unhelpful as are all stereotypes.

Using a proper name as a collective noun for a stereotype is nasty.

@KnotsLanding no reason you should get involved if you dont want to or be offended. But I would argue that it isnt really "whites laughing at themselves". A lot of the time it is (white) men laughing at (white) women. That is sexism dressed up as "wokeness". I would also be slightly concerned that it is going to be used by racists to push back against BLM, argue white people are victims of racism too, and change the subject on dificult conversations etc etc. But to be fair they would probably do that anyway.

I also think Karen is just a new word in a long long line of words for women which began life as either neutral, or a word that denoted status, but then became degraded into something negative (usually a word for whore). Consider: Mistress, Hussy, Spinster, Madame, Courtesan, Wench Tart. It tells you a lot about the ugency felt to put women down every time they gain a little bit of status. Thanks to the internet we get to see that happen a lot faster. We also get to see that we havent progressed as much as we should.

Absolutely right. Sad these woke new youngsters are simply continuing an age old troupe 🙁. the male equivalents for those words listed don’t have negative connotations do they? . There is no male equivalent for Karen. Same old misogyny- so ground breaking and right on 🙄

Nothing to do with me and i will continue to laugh at the so true Karen meme

I disagree. It's not just a white on white thing at all. But go ahead and laugh at the meme. In time people won't care that much about it. And, they'll stop listening too. So, well done 👍