To be amazed they've released Mairead Philpott?

[MarylinMonrue]

After serving half her sentence for the arson attack? Apparently even a source from the prison was a shocked at the leniency and the fact she's going to get a new identity and protection. Six children in that fire - is there such a thing as justice in this country anymore?

@stairway

I don’t think they did a very good job at concealing anything though. Neither had the intelligence to realise burning their house down might kill their children. I don’t think either really have the mental capacity to really contemplate the sheer awfulness of they’ve done. Their lack care for their children is truly shocking though . I think it reflects on their lack of emotional intelligence.

I don't believe this. I really don't. Neither has severe enough learning difficulties to not understand that you cant control w fire.

Do either of them have confirmed learning disabilities even or just low intelligence ?because there is a big difference

I don’t think they did a very good job at concealing anything though. Neither had the intelligence to realise burning their house down might kill their children. I don’t think either really have the mental capacity to really contemplate the sheer awfulness of they’ve done.

But that isn’t the capacity required to be criminally responsible.

Neither had the intelligence to realise burning their house down might kill their children.

And this is simply isn’t true. You can’t live in the world without requiring significant care and not realise fires kill people.

@WhataFarce76

The few interviews I've seen with the press and police who were involved, especially in the days after, made it clear that the authorities knew straight away that they were somehow involved, due to the bizarre behaviour and lack of emotion. I've said it upthread already but even if it was a terrible accident (plan that went too far and got out of control) WHERE was the real emotion for them just having had their family totally wiped out and another child critically ill in hospital? They couldn't even be convincing enough for the police and press to believe they were genuinely grieving parents. They were bad actors in a drama of their own making.

Yes, indeed. I suppose I can believe she didn’t think the children would die, but she doesn’t seem to have been all that bothered when they did.

You can live for years with a violent, abusive partner and have low IQ/LD and still be a really evil person.

Anyone who stands back and allows children to be harmed is a bad person.

The other thing that gets forgotten is that Mick will have been abusive to his kids too. It wasn't just one day, completely out of the blue that Mick thought up a way to make his kids suffer. Any parent who allows their partner to harm their kids isn't worth the the shit on my shoes.

As well as being deemed fit to stand trial, she also had a job and would have dealt with the schools and midwifes over the years and if she was intelligent enough to go through all of that she would have understood the risk of the fire.

Her family have been very open about a lot of things including arguing about takeaway as one of the boys lay dying in hospital and yet I haven’t seen them try to defend her by saying she was too stupid to understand the consequences of what they were doing.

As well as being deemed fit to stand trial, she also had a job and would have dealt with the schools and midwifes over the years and if she was intelligent enough to go through all of that she would have understood the risk of the fire.

Of course she understood it. If nothing else, why else would they have thought the kids needed rescuing?

@ZoeCM

It doesn’t help anyone to keep her locked up. It doesn’t bring back her children.

By this logic, we should release all murderers from prison, because locking them up didn't bring their victims back.

Well, quite. We do release murderers once they’ve served the time required (usually not the whole sentence either) and if they believe they are no longer a danger to the public.

In fact in the documentary whilst her sisters did think Mick manipulated her and I think most of us would agree he did neither if them defended her actions and said they couldn't understand her reaction,they also said she had a history of lying

I don't understand the insistence that her low IQ is so significant that she fails to understand that fire is dangerous. How low an IQ are you imagining? Because if it was significantly low, akin to a five year old child (when most NT children understand that fire is dangerous), I very much doubt she would have been able to live without considerable care. She wouldn't have had the capacity to get married or have and raise children. She wouldn't have been able to feed or bathe her children appropriately.
If she was so frightened of Mick (and I'm not for a second suggesting he isn't an abusive fucking scumbag) why didn't she give him the divorce he wanted and leave him?
If she was as vulnerable and of such low intelligence that she failed to understand the dangers of fire, her defence team would have been all over that like flies around a muckheap, and as self-preservation appears to be the main defence PPs are giving for her going along with this plan to set fire to the house with her children in it, for fear of God knows what from Mick, why did she still fail to see this as a chance to escape?
What defense is there for her sexually abusing her step son?
On another thread at the moment there is absolute horror at a father hitting his son. Cries of 'yet more male violence' yet because Mairead is a woman people don't seem to be able or willing to believe that she is in any way guilty of failing her children in the worst possible way. There is too much sympathy for her and nowhere near enough for those children.

@Ohtherewearethen

I don't understand the insistence that her low IQ is so significant that she fails to understand that fire is dangerous. How low an IQ are you imagining? Because if it was significantly low, akin to a five year old child (when most NT children understand that fire is dangerous), I very much doubt she would have been able to live without considerable care. She wouldn't have had the capacity to get married or have and raise children. She wouldn't have been able to feed or bathe her children appropriately. If she was so frightened of Mick (and I'm not for a second suggesting he isn't an abusive fucking scumbag) why didn't she give him the divorce he wanted and leave him? If she was as vulnerable and of such low intelligence that she failed to understand the dangers of fire, her defence team would have been all over that like flies around a muckheap, and as self-preservation appears to be the main defence PPs are giving for her going along with this plan to set fire to the house with her children in it, for fear of God knows what from Mick, why did she still fail to see this as a chance to escape? What defense is there for her sexually abusing her step son? On another thread at the moment there is absolute horror at a father hitting his son. Cries of 'yet more male violence' yet because Mairead is a woman people don't seem to be able or willing to believe that she is in any way guilty of failing her children in the worst possible way. There is too much sympathy for her and nowhere near enough for those children.

Best post yet.

The few interviews I've seen with the press and police who were involved, especially in the days after, made it clear that the authorities knew straight away that they were somehow involved, due to the bizarre behaviour and lack of emotion. I've said it upthread already but even if it was a terrible accident (plan that went too far and got out of control) WHERE was the real emotion for them just having had their family totally wiped out and another child critically ill in hospital? They couldn't even be convincing enough for the police and press to believe they were genuinely grieving parents. They were bad actors in a drama of their own making. this is one of the main reasons why parents etc are encouraged to speak to the press. The press statements/interviews are generally watched by police psychologists in order to get an idea of their reactions/behaviours which could or couldn’t tie them to the case.

This obviously isn’t all that happens, but it’s a part of it.

On another thread at the moment there is absolute horror at a father hitting his son. Cries of 'yet more male violence' yet because Mairead is a woman people don't seem to be able or willing to believe that she is in any way guilty of failing her children in the worst possible way. There is too much sympathy for her and nowhere near enough for those children. Last night I was called a rape apologist amongst other things because I, and others on the thread, didn’t immediately leap to sympathise with this woman who cared so little about her children that she was prepared to have them burn to death.

It’s an insult to women who are sufferers of domestic violence who wouldn’t ever dream of harming their children, in fact it is often the threat to the children which inspires many of these women to leave their abusers and seek help.

Everything Ohtherewearethen said.

Not much to add but to suggest that there are kids like these in every school in the country.

Very sad how things happened for these kids, but many other kids are living in similar circumstances.

Well, quite. We do release murderers once they’ve served the time required (usually not the whole sentence either) and if they believe they are no longer a danger to the public.

Ian Brady died in prison, as did Peter Sutcliffe.

Should Mick be released from prison now because keeping him locked up won't bring his children back to life?

Yep very much Mumsnet double standards ,her own family can't condone or understand her actions ,yet some posters try and absolve her of all guilt .

This thread is a real insight into how some MNers view people who live in council houses. Posters are assuming that an adult woman didn't understand that fire can kill you on the basis of... what? I don't think Mairead would have survived to adulthood without round-the-clock care if that were the case. No evidence was presented in court to suggest that she lacked the mental capacity of a five-year-old. Where are people getting the idea that she didn't understand that her husband's plan was dangerous?

@ZoeCM

Well, quite. We do release murderers once they’ve served the time required (usually not the whole sentence either) and if they believe they are no longer a danger to the public.

Ian Brady died in prison, as did Peter Sutcliffe.

Should Mick be released from prison now because keeping him locked up won't bring his children back to life?

They died in a secure hospital, not a prison.

I don't know @ZoeCM my youngest son has severe autism and learning disabilities so I know lots of children with complex learning disabilities it's a big spectrum and even some children at my son's special school would understand fire is dangerous and kills .

Where are people getting the idea that she didn't understand that her husband's plan was dangerous?

They’re just making it up, against the weight of the evidence.

@AlternativePerspective

The few interviews I've seen with the press and police who were involved, especially in the days after, made it clear that the authorities knew straight away that they were somehow involved, due to the bizarre behaviour and lack of emotion. I've said it upthread already but even if it was a terrible accident (plan that went too far and got out of control) WHERE was the real emotion for them just having had their family totally wiped out and another child critically ill in hospital? They couldn't even be convincing enough for the police and press to believe they were genuinely grieving parents. They were bad actors in a drama of their own making. this is one of the main reasons why parents etc are encouraged to speak to the press. The press statements/interviews are generally watched by police psychologists in order to get an idea of their reactions/behaviours which could or couldn’t tie them to the case.

This obviously isn’t all that happens, but it’s a part of it.

It was commented on Gaby Mick was thanking everyone for their help but didn't once appeal for the person who did it to come forward or be found etc.

They said he actually requested the press conference and they'd found it weird at the time and he faked a collapse outside that was akin to a child faking illness to have a day off school it was so bad.

2xboys
I read the coverage of the serious case review but couldn't find the actual review.

Social services were aware of the family and their "unusual living situation" and aware of an incident of domestic violence against Mairead in 2010 when Mich dragged her out of the house by the hair. They weren't aware of his previous prison sentence.

When they visited the family they found that the kids were happy and well adjusted and commented that Mick interacted warmly with the kids. They remarked that the family dynamics were unusual but that the women seemed happy. That financial abuse was likely but otherwise no issues.

I think for some it’s just inconceivable that a women will put a man before their children and that if she has it’s only through manipulation and control

It’s more complex than that. Many women will also thrive off the excitement of being with a man that is unpredictable that will one minute shower them with love and then ignore them, they get into games of making him jealous and romanticise their relationship even when violent that it’s not healthy for threat children is irrelevant to them they are so wrapped up in their relationship

The men in these relationships are not hanging about waiting often then too are messed up

Having worked in dv I have met a number of women who will always put their partner before their children regardless how much support they had or what they stood to lose (and would soon move on to another man) they make choices for themselves they put themselves (and partner) first the poor children are just dragged along you see it over and over again

They have enough fight in them to fight every one is the system though